Modern Marketers with Blake Beus and Greg Marshall

Modern marketing tactics that anyone can use to scale and grow

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Wednesday Jun 15, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript   Blake Beus  0:00  All right, yeah. Okay. All right. Greg, you were telling me about this time you were working with a client. And you, you let them convince you to make changes, you knew we're not good changes. Yeah. And it didn't, then well. So yes, I wanted to ask you kind of about when you should put your foot down, when you're working with clients, when you should put your foot down and say, No, you're not making these changes, we are not making these changes, and like, how to how to handle that. Greg Marshall  0:32  Yeah. So I think what I've learned over, you know, I don't know how many clients I've worked with at this point. But it's very similar to even personal training. Clients are, you know, they become influenced by things they're seeing and hearing and, or maybe a conviction that they suddenly have. And when, in the past, what would happen is, I'm thinking of it as one particular client. Yeah, where I'm like, man, you know, they really had huge momentum. And they, because I allowed them to convince me that they should do a different thing. They completely have, like, gone the wrong direction. And so I think the correct time is, immediately, when, when, like, when I look back at because, you know, you make mistakes, even even when it's like indirect, right? Like, it wasn't actually my advice to do what they were doing, but I did it to satisfy the client. There's, there's a slight danger in that. Yeah. Because sometimes you can actually not get the client the results that they actually are desiring by allowing them to dictate what's happening, right. And kind of the situation was, we were talking, we had the way I structured everything, actually not I think this happens twice. The way we structure everything was a way that they felt they personally just fell out of their comfort zone and out of control. Okay. And because of that they made decisions based on that versus the result. Blake Beus  2:02  Okay, what was was, was this the business owner, like the founder, the founder, owner owner role times both times, okay, okay. Because I think that's relevant sometimes, because they're used to having control over everything. And as a business scales, this happens in more areas than just advertising and media buying. But they need to start letting go of control and delegating and dictating. And this is probably, you know, an instance of that as well. Right? Well, and they were both solopreneurs. Okay, right. And so they didn't even have a team. They don't have any other contractors other than you. Greg Marshall  2:39  Maybe, but I don't think so. Okay, if they did, it was to two or three. Okay. And so one of the, one of the things that I learned, though, is because I can, in my mind, I can remember exactly what I would do differently, which is, I would have said, You should follow this system, regardless of how you feel. Just look at the numbers. Right? Right. And we were talking about how a lot of times we're making decisions off of emotion. And that's usually the times where you make the worst, right? Because your fears is taken into account, or stress, and then you just start making these these decisions that they don't really make any sense. Yeah, right. And the situation was the way that I had the campaign structured, I had a whole bunch of ad sets, a whole bunch of different targeting a whole bunch, just a lot of stuff visually, when they looked at it, they couldn't fully understand it. Right. And so because of that, they felt like, oh, I don't like I don't like how this looks okay. versus how much am I spent? How much time? Blake Beus  3:49  Right? And was this? Was this recent, or years ago? Or what is Unknown Speaker  3:53  two years Blake Beus  3:54  ago? Two years ago? Okay. Greg Marshall  3:55  So it's been two years, because I know, Blake Beus  3:57  we've talked recently about a simpler campaign structure, but a few years ago, yes, that's what was working, that's having a lot of different campaigns and a lot of different targeting of peaks acid, Greg Marshall  4:07  this is before iOS, right? changes where you can, you know, really, you could Blake Beus  4:12  really get targeted and really get that data. Whereas now that's, that's not really available. So broader campaigns, especially in Facebook broadcasts tend to work better. Well, and Greg Marshall  4:21  here's, here's the other thing. So this also applies to now. So people who are stuck and living in the old days of how things used to be, which is the big mistake you can make if you're running a business is to follow how things used to be and not adapt to what is now, right, you get, you know, with the whole iOS changes, now people can't see the tracking as well. And so that's sometimes drives them to want to test there's got to be some secret targeting out there, of being able to track this and that's just not the case. And so, this iOS change has actually helped me get better at leading the client and telling them no This is what we need to do, regardless of how we feel okay? Right. And I use those numbers that we're talking about, because there are actual, like benchmarks that I'm measuring everything. But in the past, I have never really like, educated the customer, okay, on these numbers. And it wasn't until last week when we had a conversation, where Blake actually, he structured a sentence that I think kind of like changed my whole mindset, because what's obvious to him was a blind spot for me. And he talked about business intelligence. And since I've used what he basically taught me last week, it is already helped my clients tremendously and feeling like we're on the right track, okay. And it's like a strategy, because this whole time I've been operating off this strategy, but never communicating. Okay, what that is, because normally, when I would bring it up, they would just kind of have a blank. Like, yeah, what does that mean? Exactly? Okay. And I would go through, so maybe I assumed, which is the wrong idea. I assume that maybe they're not interested in knowing any of this information. But it's actually incorrect. They are interested I, it's my job to break it down. For them to understand it in like the simplest terms. Blake Beus  6:19  Okay, so what what are some of your tips and tricks to breaking down? Complex? You know, digital advertising and marketing numbers Sure, into what they actually want to know. Yep. Because a lot of times, they don't know what they want to know. Right? Because they're an expert in their area, whether it's ecommerce or, or something, they built it up to a point, and they're an expert in that area. But sometimes they don't know what to ask. So what's your tips on breaking down these complicated things? To give them the answers they want? So they can move on and feel good about where they're at? Greg Marshall  6:53  Yeah, so number one, I basically measure against, like other people's accounts, and other numbers from my like history, right? So for example, knowing like, I don't want to exceed 30%, on marketing costs to revenue generation, right. And basically using that as like that as the top baseline of what we're going to use, and anything below that is good. All right. And then the next thing I explained is click through rates, and then offers. So with the click through rates, I just basically tell him what a click through rate means, okay, and what we're trying to achieve. So in the simplest term, I just say, the click through rate basically is telling you if we're either talking to the right person, or we're saying the wrong thing, okay, right. So if we're at 1% or higher, that means we're talking to the right person, we're saying the right thing. If we're below that, we need to change that. Okay. That's the that's the problem. Then, the next number I explained is if let's say we have a 2%, click through rate, I educate them on the mistake everyone makes is they have a high click through rate on the ad. And then people get to their page and no one buys. They think it's the ad. But it's not No, see, but most people don't know that. So before I wouldn't even explain that, I would just say, well, we have to, like fix the offer. And I would receive resistance from the business owner like no, there's got to be the ad is not doing right. And it's like, well, that's not really the case. So I use this as the analogy I use with all okay, I say, this is how it works. Let's pretend we're in a physical space. And we're at the mall. And you have a store at the mall, which is your Shopify store. And it's a very big mall, and you're trying to get your target customer into the store will find go outside and I have like the best sign ever. And I get them excited. And a whole bunch of people are coming to my billboard that a high sign that I'm spinning, and they go, Hey, where's this store where I can buy these unbelievable hoodies? It's right in here. And I send them in there. And then the hoodies are $10,000. And none of them can afford it. Or they go in there and we only have size large and everyone who went in as a size small, or they go in and we don't even have what we told them we had. What's the problem? Is it the advertisement? Or is it what's inside the store? Right? And they all understand that they grow. That makes sense. So I say when we have a high click through rate on our ad that means we did our job getting them there. Yeah, getting them excited. Now, we did not do our job once they got there. Right. And so that seemed that analogy right there seems to like simplify all the stuff that you can look in Facebook and Google and Tik Tok and all the ads he confused with. Yeah, to me, that's what simplifies it. Blake Beus  9:54  Well, I mean, that makes a ton of sense. I think the only time that's not the case is if you're trying to intentionally deceive people with your ads And frankly, I just won't work with anybody. Well, that there are people out there that do that. So. So if they're getting there and they're landing on the page and they're not buying, then there's something wrong with the offer, or something broken on the page. That's the other thing to think about. And I think a lot of clients resist hearing that unless you explain it and break it down in a good way, because they're interpreting that as there's something wrong with me. Yes. Especially in a solo printer kind of business situation, because this is something they created. Yeah. And when you say, well, there's something wrong with the offer, they hear. I'm the screwed up one, because everybody kind of deals with impostor syndrome, especially at this stage in the business. And so breaking it down like that, I think removes helps them understand that you're not blaming them, you're just saying, Hey, here's the situation. So we need to pivot on the offer a little bit. Yep. And that's fine. Because you created these offers, you can also pivot on the offer, and you're super flexible. You don't have to like go to a board of directors and try to get approval for an offer change. If you're getting people into your, you know, mall store with your flippy sign and everything and people aren't buying, you can just ask them. Well, what did you expect this and this and this? Come back next week, and we'll have Hustings. We'll make that happen? Yep. And, and a lot of people don't think about how easy that can actually be. Yep. If you just, oh, they expect this close. Just give them that. We don't even need to change the ads, let's just change the page to give them exactly what they want. And now we're profitable. You just Greg Marshall  11:31  made a point that I would have forgot to make. Okay, I didn't say. Okay, so I may or may have mentioned this maybe before, but I know I've told someone in person this. So one of my clients was getting zero sales. Okay, on their fitness product they're selling. Before the like, we started, right. So then we ran some tests. And for two weeks, we ran the we kept his ads the same. And all we do is change the landing page and the offer, and now he's getting sales all the time. Okay. But we never changed, the app never changed. The the ads never changed. The target never changed and nothing changed. Yeah, just what happened? What at the actual page. What's interesting is, if you look at the ads, the click through rates and everything have been the exact same, there has been no changes. Which would tell you that means the theory of they clicked on the ad. But when they were getting to the page initially, the offer was not good. Yeah, right. Right. But you change the offer, and now the same ad that you did nothing to converts. Right. And so that's, that's the point is to be flexible with what you're actually offering to test. Why aren't people buying? We don't have the, you know, the advantage of like in person, you can literally just ask the people, right, what it is online, you can't right? They're just, they don't reveal that to you. So you have to test things to see what it is. What are my favorite techniques to use for like, especially newer stores that are struggling with getting conversions a lot of times, because, like the point you made, the business owner believes they are the actual product, the art, they are the sweatshirts and the and the hats and the shoes, right? Which is incorrect. But I understand why they feel that way. Right. And I don't think it's wrong. I just think sometimes it can get in the way. So if it, one of my favorite techniques is when a company is struggling to get the conversions. What I typically like to do to see if it's people don't like the product, or if it's just like the price is I do a heavy discount for a short duration of time. And if we all of a sudden start seeing sales, then we know we're not communicating the value to justify the price. Right? Yeah, that's my favorite way to figure out a weave. Are we demonstrating enough value or do people think you are as a guest elite as you're saying you are right. Because if they all of a sudden are buying the product that means they liked the product right? Is they don't think the price is value to what you're giving them to? Blake Beus  14:19  Yeah, I think I think that's a great strategy. Greg Marshall  14:23  I usually have to twist the business owners heart Well, a lot of a lot of Blake Beus  14:27  them don't want to discount and and I I fully understand I don't want to discount this I you know I should be able to sell it I put my heart and soul into this discounting cheapens the brand blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I heard Tony Robbins say I should be increasing my prices instead of decreasing my price. But here's the thing, you got to go through a chump troubleshooting phase. Yep. A temporary discount to try to identify a problem is not going to cheapen the brand. It could be a flash sale that you do for two weeks. And even though Tony Robbins tells you don't don't discount things because You'll cheapen your brand, the number of times I've seen a $7 offer from Tony Robbins is mind boggling. So that guy discounts his stuff all the time. Greg Marshall  15:09  All the ones that say never discount, they do biggest perpetrators, they Blake Beus  15:13  do it all the time. So you got to see, you got to look at what they're doing, not necessarily what they're saying. Because many times what they're saying is just marketing language to try to get you to buy whatever they're doing. So and then the other side of it is, you need to have an understanding, you need to explain this to your clients that people buy based on perceived value, not actual value. And the reason is, is because everybody's actual values a little bit different. Yep. And we don't know what the actual value is until we actually start using the thing or whatever. But when we're making a purchase decision, it's on perceived value. Now, that doesn't mean we should give everybody this perceived value, that's way overinflated and then try to sell that that's, that's manipulation. But if you're not explaining that value, so that they in their own head are thinking, this is a great deal. Yep. Even it doesn't matter if your product is $500, or $5. Yep, the perceived value is why people are buying. And so some time, if you get discount, if you discount and you're getting sales, then you got to think, Okay, we need to put some more explanation on the sales page or somewhere to explain the actual, you know, the value so that they can start adjusting their perceived value. And some great ways to do that are testimonials. Yep, it's a really good way to do that case studies to show results based on what your product is, or whatever. If it's something like a T shirt or whatever, because we talked about those a lot. Just some high quality lifestyle shots. Yep, can go a long way to increase the perceived value. There's lots of different ways to do it. But we need to have that understanding. Right? Well, and Greg Marshall  16:57  that's, so if you're, if you're someone struggling with like, you're just starting and you can't, you're just not getting sales, be open minded to test that. Normally. When I said earlier, you got to twist their arm. It's because there is a fear. There's an assumption that everyone is watching. But it's false. Yeah, right. There's an assumption, like, I'm going on the news to announce to the entire world that I'm discounting my store. 50% Yeah. And now, you know, the whole world knows, cheap, you know, cheap and my brand. But really, that's an over, I guess, an over inflation. Oh, how much people are actually watching? Right. Right. So they're not going to remember you ran a sale to troubleshoot your brand, you know, two years ago? Blake Beus  17:44  No, like, Absolutely not. So Greg Marshall  17:46  don't only have to remember in two weeks, they might not even remember the mark. Yeah, Blake Beus  17:50  there's so much going on. So I Greg Marshall  17:53  think, you know, use that as an opportunity to figure out why. And I've done this multiple times with clients, and then they, they start to figure out, okay, because the fear uses if there's no conversions, it's no one likes my product. That's Blake Beus  18:06  the fear. That's the fear. And that's someone who's created their own product. Yes, I felt that deeply. Yep. And it's normal. It is normal. I literally have been to therapy to help me with this problem. I think it's a very natural and normal thing. But it's something you kind of hit head on and worked through and work towards. And there's an entire industry of occupational therapists that help people deal with feeling that in their careers in one way or another, and it's totally valid, it's a valid feeling. And Greg Marshall  18:42  so I think, usually, this is what I see. When, when, when a company is struggling to get conversions and people aren't buying it. They start that fear, it's triggering it more and more. So they're like, oh, no, no one likes my product. What happens? No, buy, you know, you go, you go through this negative mental cycle, right? But then when you run somebody this and then they see wow, I got a lot of sales when I did this discount. It's almost like it rejuvenates them, because then it proves them. Oh, people do like this. Right? Right. It's nice. I just need to figure out how can I sell it at a higher price, right? And so this is also a good way to build your confidence back up. Yeah, if you're struggling with like, Man, I spent all this time doing this and no one's buying it. This is this is a great way to do it. And don't be don't be afraid. Here's the other counterintuitive thing. So one of my clients we're running a retargeting campaign, which is gonna make total sense but to him, he felt like why why would we do that? So we, we, I think we're only knocking off like 15% or more, okay, like, they go on the page. Then they get retargeted I take 50% off right? Yeah, the funny thing because once again, this is the the tug of war with the client of like, just given Shot is there like, well, if I do that I'll be making less money. And once again, that's an emotional statement, because do you have something in front of you? Data that has showed that has proven that already? Yeah. Or have you tried it yet? Yeah. Well, we're running it and he's getting a 6x return about his retargeting. And I said, so interesting. We're lowering the costs. Blake Beus  20:23  What's his what's his return on the cold traffic without the discount? 1.75 1.75. So this with people that don't buy, give him a 15% discount, and you're getting a 6x return? Yep. Even after accounting for the discount? Yep. So I'll do that all day long. Greg Marshall  20:42  So to me, the cat. So this is where, you know, we talked about business intelligence, I have almost to ingrain in the head is look at how much we spent, how much was made. Yeah, look how much was spent. It's almost like as long as I keep that reminder, because the temptation is to act off a motion, right? And to say, I don't know if I feel like this is working, which, which is not the same as it is working. Blake Beus  21:12  Right. I don't feel but but again, like the perceived value conversation, from a customer standpoint, as an agency owner to a client standpoint, they're making decisions based on that perceived value or emotion that I don't feel like this is a good idea. Yeah. Well, on paper, you're getting a 6x return. Yeah, you like to worry about how many times you just think about it, if I give this magical little machine over here, $1. And then they give me six back? I will keep doing that. Yep, I will keep doing that. I will do with 1.7. But I would rather do it with six, yep, you know, 6x. And so when people start wrapping their heads around that it's much easier in it, this makes me kind of take a big step back. And think the difference between really great media buyers and agency owners that work with clients, and those that are not really great, that tend to struggle is this ability to level up their own clients from an educational standpoint, to take the time to explain these concepts in a way that makes sense for them, so they stay on on board longer, they understand the value that they're getting, they understand and start to start to trust you more, but they've got to have that understanding. Greg Marshall  22:32  Well, and I think you're 100%, right, which is, even as I you know, I've been doing this a long time, right. But there's always areas to improve. And that's an area of focus of mine, is to inject this philosophy of how if you think about it long term, and you're structuring off of these types of metrics, you'll get much better results than trying to do a hack or trying to just like, you know, skip steps, right, or not actually build a real machine. And because of that, I think, by educating them on this has been very helpful. Yeah, the business intelligence side, because with that, they're able to, it seems to drive down their anxiety. Yeah. Like, they just feel it. And once again, what is anxiety and emotion? It's not what's actually happening. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's the key. If anything, I would say, make sure to check your emotions as you're growing your business because you can make big mistakes in your business based off of feeling the wrong emotions for that day. And what I find there is a trend that I noticed when clients want to make changes. And it's normally they didn't sleep good. Maybe they got an argument with their significant other, okay, their children are driving crazy. Uh huh. And because of that, they want to make a change on their own. Blake Beus  24:07  They want to feel some control in their life. I mean, really, I'm, I'm the champion, the champion, the champion of external factors wanting me to have some control in my business. Greg Marshall  24:21  There's nothing wrong with that. I think that's I think that's a normal emotion. Yeah. So I don't want to sit here and say you should be a robot. Yeah, what I'm saying as you just take an extra step, and think, Okay, I feel very emotional right now, because of whatever. Uh huh. Let me take a rest for a minute. And just kind of decompress and then come back to this because I feel like it's kind of like, you know, you're married. If you're upset because of something at work. And then you go home and your wife says something to your likelihood of getting more set are some that means nothing is higher. And it has nothing to do with your wife. Blake Beus  25:04  Nothing. Just because we're in an emotional state, right? And, and one trick I have for this particular thing, and maybe this is something that can help some clients or whatever is is to say, Okay, I want to make this change, decision made, which already makes me feel better because I made a decision. But then I say, I know I'm a little bit emotional, or I'm tired or whatever. So I'm not gonna actually implement it for 48 hours. And then 48 hours, most of the time, I'm like, Well, that sounds like a dumb idea. Sit on it for a minute and give it a minute. But if I do feel good about it by then I'll you know, I'll go ahead and make that change. And see, but I've at least, I've at least kind of felt like I did something by making the decision, but then waiting for 48 hours before actually implemented, Greg Marshall  25:50  it's, it's a good, it's just a good way to do it. And it's something that I'm even trying to improve, how can I provide more value to my customers that could be as I'm doing more of this marketing, consulting and running ads, you also learn that some of the value that I believe, initially, I thought was not that valuable to the customer, is actually the big value of why people want to stay on like, remember, when we first got started, you refer to me as your marketing therapy. It was true, and it's more of not King Greg, click the buttons and get people, right. The value that you were really getting was, how do I not have so much anxiety that I'm crazy? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a big value to the customer is to be able to say, we got this. Yeah. Blake Beus  26:46  And it was really nice for me to basically, to hand off that responsibility to you. Yep. So I could say, okay, Greg's got this, and he's gonna let me know how things are going. So I could focus on delivery or creating new products or whatever. And for you, it's less stress, because you didn't make the product and so you're not as emotionally detached in the product attached, you're detached, and so you can make better, more informed decisions. And, and it was it was, it's a great way to to delegate and handle and Greg Marshall  27:21  it's almost you know, it's funny, it's almost now that you say that the perfect if you have if you have this question in your mind, should I hire an agency or a person to run my ads? It's not actually. Can they do the job? Yeah. It's, it's more about yourself? Do I have a tendency to feel anxious and concern about the ads when I run them? Yeah. If you do, you need to hire someone. And I'm being dead serious. Yeah, absolutely. If if you are someone that tends to stress out about, like, this isn't, you know, I got it, you know, and you just feel really emotional about it. You're the perfect candidate to actually hire someone else out, because you're the one that needs it the most. Because if you're if you can't just make decisions, like if you can't do this last night, you're with your family, you slept, no hours, you everything went wrong at home, and then you come you come into work, and you look at your numbers, and you can't separate the numbers from the business and home life. You really need to hire this. Because that just shows like everyone that if you run into that risk, you have to understand what your weaknesses are. Yeah. You just have like, we all have them. And that's Blake Beus  28:50  and that's taking it way big step back and just talking about business growth in general. That's something you're going to have to step through if you want to scale. Yep. Right. And it happens so much with solo solo entrepreneur kind of situation, which, you know, I was in multiple times. You have to be able to let go of some of that control and delegate and train and one of my favorite books on this. It's an old book, it's called the E Myth. Have you ever read? Yeah, amen. Greg Marshall  29:24  That's actually one of the first books I ever read. Yeah, it's, Blake Beus  29:27  it's an excellent book. It's more about, you'd have to translate it over to like a digital, kind of kind of context, but still really helpful. But you have to wade through that. And if you don't wade through that, your business will always stay capped at a certain level. Now, some people are totally fine with that. Maybe it's like a second income type situation and that is completely fine. But if you're at a position where you're thinking, I'm doing everything and I can't seem to get this over the top, you have to find a way to let go of some of that control. and delegate pieces of your business and one area is with, you know, a media buyer marketing agency or whatever. And I don't want to talk about this right now, we should definitely do one on this. But how to find good media buyer or agency or something? Because that those are murky waters? Yeah, that is not an easy thing to do. And you can, I've worked with agencies that have a flashy website, so you have all the right words and language. And then when you start working with them, they don't really know. Anything. And and, and I've worked with others that their presence is small or whatever online, but they know they're stuck. Yep. And so maybe that's something we can cover. And we should Greg Marshall  30:45  definitely talk about that. Because they're, you know, without, you know, saying any names or whatever. There's, there's a couple people that I'm working with right now that match that, yeah, now we're on this front end level, the public believes that they are running all these ads and all that, but then I'm in the background. And so they're hiring me like, Hey, I've actually been told this, we don't know how to market. Yeah. And I remember thinking, marketing, your marketing. And I couldn't believe hear that, right. But it just makes it makes you question all types of things. Who else is telling you they know how to do something? They have no clue. But yeah, I mean, and it's out there. And it's no, this isn't about shaming, or making people feel bad. This is just about knowing how to vet and do all that. And so we should, we should talk about this, because there's definitely some way just to protect yourself. And to make sure you get the maximum value Absolutely. Blake Beus  31:45  In this in the same area. I feel like website development because I've I approach all of this from that was where I spent the first 10 years was in website development surrounding marketing technology. But the same thing is, is when someone wants to hire a website developer, yeah, the same problem happens i i worked with one company. At the by the time the project was done, the client had spent over $500,000, on this website, five, it was it was a very, very large product $500,000 on this website. And six months later, the whole project was scrapped because it was full of security holes. And this was this was in an industry where you just couldn't have a security problem. And the amount of effort it would be for for me and my team at the time to fix all of that would wouldn't have been worth it. And then Greg Marshall  32:44  later, I wouldn't want to write a check big enough. Blake Beus  32:48  I found out later that that agency had literally just found someone on Upwork to do all their development, because they didn't have any in house developers gonna have graphic designers and other things like that. They didn't have a developer, so they just hired someone on Upwork that said they had the skills. And that one person who they probably only paid maybe 50 grand, that one person did all of the stuff. Yep. And then they charged Greg Marshall  33:13  $500,000. And that just shows you to to never, from a consumer standpoint, don't underestimate the expertise of cert like meaning, don't arrogantly believe that other industries are not as valuable as others because what that typically means is all well, anyone can do a developer. Anyone can make. Yeah, anyone can do email mark, right? You're making these assumptions. Like it's not that hard. Can't be that hard, right? And that's if you have that kind of mentality, you're most likely going to fall prey to that and end up hiring people that aren't actually good at what they say they're good. Yeah, or make a huge mess of things that don't need to be made. But anyways, we don't want to get too crazy. Yeah, we'll do a whole nother. Blake Beus  34:04  I just was thinking of that just now. So we'll we'll make that happen. But let's let's wrap this up. If you were to kind of summarize this whole conversation, Greg, on how you've learned to better handle those anxieties, communicate with your clients better. Wrap it up, give us give us a good summary. Greg Marshall  34:21  Yeah, I think the biggest thing is this, I need to directly tell them number wise, this is what we're going to do. And take the leadership of that and say we are doing this and being okay with if it fails Tommy and, and not kind of shying away from them. And I think with that kind of mentality and simplifying what really matters from don't even think about everything else. A couple of numbers. They just need to know how much we spend and how much are we making? What's the actual return? What's the click through rates? Blake Beus  34:57  And then what's next and how I compare and how do I compare to others? Well, everybody worries about that. Yeah. How do I compare to others? How's Greg Marshall  35:04  my progress good and good. That's actually what I'm getting better at is telling people this, you're either succeeding or we're not where we need to be yet. Blake Beus  35:13  So we're going to make some adjustment. So this is where we're succeeding. We don't necessarily need to make those adjusts. Greg Marshall  35:18  We make no adjustment. My job is to make sure you don't do anything. Yeah. Maybe, Blake Beus  35:23  maybe test scaling up if you have that model supports that. Right. The business model supports that. So all right, cool. I like that. Greg, how can people reach out to you, Greg Marshall  35:30  Greg, and you can book a free strategy session. Blake Beus  35:34  Blake I have the SM3 group in there. It's a group kind of code coaching consulting surrounding social media marketing. So you can check that out. Greg Marshall  35:43  Well, until next time, we'll see you guys later. Blake Beus  35:45  Okay, catch you later. Bye. Bye.  

Friday Jun 10, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript   Greg Marshall  0:00  All right. Well, I think we were talking a little bit about server side. Google Tag Manager tag. Yeah. All right. So because I don't know much about this, and you're more on the technical side, we're gonna run this more like an interview style. All right, let's do and, and I'm gonna ask questions that I think clients would actually asked. Yeah. And then you can respond to that, they at least have a deep understanding of what we're doing. So number one, what is Blake Beus  0:25  let's talk about what Google Tag Manager is a lot. I mean, many, many, many of you out there are already maybe know what this is. But the problem that was built to solve was essentially, a lot of marketers and advertisers needed the ability to control a little bit of the marketing code on the website, without having to necessarily involve developers. So traditionally, you had to like copy and paste that code, to put it on the website. And if you're a larger organization, you needed to get a developer involves to make sure the code was was loading correctly on the page and everything like that. But that slowed down your ability to launch campaigns into trying to try to set up new funnels and things. So Google came out with this thing called Google Tag Manager, which allowed the developers to put the code on, put some code on the page at once in a little code container. And then marketers had a nice little interface that they could log into. And they could drop. Not even really code. I mean, you could put code, but you could drop data pieces that would fire marketing tags, or event tags and things. So you could control that as a marketer, and make adjustments as you needed it without having to wait for a developer team with all of their different responsibilities and everything. Yep. So you could you could put that so that's what was there for. Got it. So So now there is now we have a server side version of that, and what is server side me. So server side essentially means basically, where where the code is run, and where your where, where the ownership of the data kind of comes from. So traditionally, the the Google Tag Manager server was Google's server. And it was owned by Google. And it was on a domain, it was like Google Tag, domain. And all of the data that Tag Manager collected, went to Google Tag Manager first, and then was forwarded on to whatever marketing tools you were using, whether it's your email marketing platform, or whatever. With server side, a company now has the ability to create their own server, they could still host it with Google, but it would be a server on your own domain name, okay. So it could be like Tag Manager, dot Blake, or like Tag Manager dot, Greg, or whatever, yep. And then the Tag Manager, server software runs there. And then when you put the code container on your own website, it's not a Google Tag, Domain Name, it's your domain name. And the data flows from there to a server that you own, and then out to your marketing platform. And Greg Marshall  3:13  as far as like, why, why is that? I mean, I think I know the answer. But I think most clients would have this question. Why is that important? Blake Beus  3:23  So it all has to do with first party and third party data. Right? So there's all these things in America, it's starting to impact us more in the in Europe, it's even bigger with their GDPR. They have different privacy rules and everything surrounding first party and third party data. So first party data is essentially you're interacting with my website, you know, you're interacting with my website. And I'm collecting data as the owner of that website and everything. So there's it's a lot clearer who owns that data, and just your click and browsing data. And and it's very clear to the user that, oh, Blake, or you know, Blake's business is probably collecting some data, third party data is much less transparent, and that I could have all these tracking codes on my website and everything. And someone could come to my website. And then who knows, I could have a data broker that selling their data off to a credit company or something like that, and they would have no idea that that was happening. So that's third party data, and we're getting more and more and more laws put in place, and tech restrictions put in place to prevent third party data from happening because there's these privacy concerns. So that was one of the big reasons. stated reasons with iOS 14 and iOS 14.5 of making the changes they had because they're like, We want to make sure that people are understanding and it's clear who's who's Only what they're doing what they're Greg Marshall  5:00  using, why they're using it, right. Got it, right. So that's why this is important. Now from a business aspect, this is actually super beneficial, because this can help you improve your understanding of return on investment. Blake Beus  5:16  Yeah, it helps, it helps in several ways. First, it improves your data collection process, right? So I don't know exactly how a lot of this is going to shake out. But as of right now, it's quite likely that if you set up Google Tag Manager server side under your own domain name, iOS 14, will likely not black block a lot of that stuff, which they currently are. And the reason is, is it's a technical reason, one of the ways iOS 14 blocks tracking data, is they block it based on domain name. So anything Google tag, just don't let that traffic go through. Well, if it's a workaround, if it's Greg Marshall, you know, if it's tracking, Greg, Apple doesn't have a block list for Greg Marshall, they probably don't even I mean, they they take your money, but yeah, the Apple execs don't know. Right? They don't. And, and it may NFU, Greg Marshall  6:15  and it would be harder for them to do this. Because you'd have to do this individually per domain, which would make this harder to block. Blake Beus  6:24  Absolutely. And it it may you mean, you said it's like a workaround? And in effect it is. But it really has to do with who's owning the data and the transparency of of how that data is being used? Greg Marshall  6:41  Do you think it's more some of my thoughts about the data and where it's going, do you think it has a lot to do more with we may get, like we you almost may get access to the data used to have as long as it's first party. And the reason why they're doing that is because they want to just make sure they can hold organizations or people accountable for specific actions. Blake Beus  7:06  Yeah, I think so I think there's a lot of accountability there. There's a lot of of ownership there. I mean, back in the back in the day, 10 years ago, you know, eight to 10 years ago, throw whatever on there. And that data was just getting any elected all over the place. It's still getting collected a lot today. I mean, I don't know if if you watch John Oliver at all, every now and again, I'll pick some up because you know who he is. He's a he runs a comedy show. But it's all political based. And he's a little bit left leaning. But he he does tackle some interesting topics. And one of them he tackled was called data brokers. It's something we haven't even talked about a whole lot on here. But there's this whole other layer behind the scenes of these huge companies that all they do through through these ad networks. And I'm not talking Google ads, or Facebook ads, I'm talking the ad networks, on all the sites that you're not familiar with. Those are ads. They collect a ton of data about people and then they just sell sell it, sell it to everybody. And it's deonna D. It's anonymized. Okay, right. They have a word for it or whatever. But the thing is, it's anonymized data, but it's this person was at this place, and he stays the night there every night of the week. But we don't know who that person is. Yeah, it's very easy to D anonymize that for someone that and that's an issue that a lot of companies are trying to solve, and some of these laws are trying to solve. So if I own the data, Blake Beus owns that data, I have zero desire to sell that data off to a Data Broker, I have no, it's not something I do or whatever. But if I put if I had a blog or something, and I was trying to expand my ad networks, and I was using some, some ad network to drop some marketing code on there, and I have no control over what types of data they're collecting. But if now with Google Tag Manager being server side owned, I own all of that data that sits there in my own database, even though Google is providing the software, and then I get to choose who I'm sending that to. And it's, it's a lot less wild, wild west. Got Greg Marshall  9:17  it. So, you know, what it sounds like his data is merging, or just, there's an evolution of cleaning it up. Making sure that it's taken care of. Yeah, just because maybe the the value wasn't seen years ago. Yeah. In the past, like, they say data is the most valuable thing. Right, right. And so because of that, you almost have to make sure there are some kind of regulations and things to keep things in order. Yeah, just because you don't want you know, wanting to go crazy as yours, how it can be used, and people just not knowing but I just think overall, organizing is probably the better way to do it. And Initially, I think there's maybe some pushback with, especially marketers, because you use us in the early stages, I think long term, it's probably going to actually make things better. I think so because then so who knows what you can do with your own data as far as what that value actually is? Because like, in the past, it was just customer list, right? And people who've purchased from me, and that's kind of your, your asset. But now, if you have first party, that could also be sold off probably, if your company was bought, right? Blake Beus  10:33  Yeah. Like if you if you have an exit plan, and you want to, you know, you, you, you sell your company or whatever, that's a business asset that you spent a lot of money and time and time growing. And as someone who maybe has an expectation, the exit plan, or whatever, you could, you could probably write into the contract, here's what you are allowed to do with this data. And here's what you're not allowed to do with this data if we agree to these terms. And, again, for me, I have zero desire for any of the data that I collect on my website is sold to a Data Broker, it doesn't, it's not a thing that benefits me at all Greg Marshall  11:08  right. And so I think, too, with first party data, it's a great way to package the value. I think this could be just an absolute, I could be completely wrong. But my guess would be in the future that could increase the value of a company is not only your customer list, but what is your your data? What are the all the data you have? Because if you can hand that off to someone that is buying your company? Yeah, that's, to me, that's one of the most valuable things is what are all these datasets that you have that we could use to keep growing the business? Yeah. And give us a head start? Blake Beus  11:44  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I feel like and I know, I've said this before, in the future, my prediction, and I'm confident I'm 100%, right on this is that businesses are going to have to own their platform, meaning they're going to have to have ownership over the servers that their website runs on, they're going to have to have ownership over their marketing tools, they're going to have to have ownership over their how they're gathering visitor data. And that means there's going to be a higher technical barrier to getting to that, because now you have to know how servers work and at some of these things, and, but what that means is, because of that ownership, you're gonna get cleaner data, yeah, you're gonna get access to data that in maybe a year from now, you can ask a question. Hey, what about? Remember that one campaign that we ran? Or, hey, is there anything similar between the people that follow this step into into this purchase funnel? You can go back and answer those questions. Whereas right now, that's really hard to do. Yep. So owning that entire stack is going to be more and more and more important. And I think the negatives is you're going to start having places where they handle a lot of that stuff for you. It's going to be harder and harder and harder for them to scale. And I'm thinking of places like click funnels, right, yes, funnel builders or, or Kajabi that builds funnels, or, or Squarespace or maybe even Wix, or whatever. Shopify maybe kind of fits into that category. But Shopify does some unique stuff. And I feel like they stay on top of things pretty fast. And I'm, I would be pretty confident that they would basically make it easy for you to spin up your own server that you have ownership over, but then you your Shopify fee is basically a maintenance, right, but but it would be kind of like your own ownership or something like that. I feel like they would have a way to do that. But these other like click funnels, I don't know full up people know this, but their privacy agreement, they share data all over the place. They share it all over the place. And I'm gonna guess most of those, any of those funnel builders, builders probably do the same thing. Yep. And I think that's going to be a hinderance in the future more than it is going to be a benefit. So what I think those sites will turn into would be something like, Okay, I have a business idea. I've got this, this plan, and I need something quick and dirty to get started. But then once you hit a certain level, you'll you'll need to move off to a platform that you all Greg Marshall  14:29  well, I think there's gonna probably all that really means is, you know, businesses a constant pivot, right. And what that means is there's going to be more offerings, new services provided of people, you know, helping you build this out. Yeah. And giving it to you. So I think, to me, it looks bright as far as what what's going to happen because if you think about it, you don't first party data you always want because you don't want to put your hands at the ear your business in the hands of someone House because you can't control that. Right? So the first party stuff I think is going to totally be beneficial. I think he's going to be a big asset to everyone who starts to build it. If you build early, you'll probably have an advantage just like anything. Yep. And I think it's really important to also understand like, at the moment, if someone wants to execute this, and they know nothing about code or whatever, should they just go to Upwork? Or what do they do to set this up? Or is this or this, Google has something already set up? Where a person maybe that similar to like myself, that knows some, but not all? Yeah. Are there instructions to follow? Or is it just hired out, like, just find someone just say, hey, just build this, Blake Beus  15:49  both. First, I always think it's worthwhile to have an understanding, even if you're not a technical server administrator, or DevOps kind of person, to have a good understanding about just the project and how it works in general, maybe you're not the one writing the code or whatever. So that's the first thing, Google has some documentation on it. And it's, it's literally like two pages of documentation, I think you could read it in a few minutes. Second, you can definitely look at hiring it out to someone on Upwork. It's a relatively new thing. Greg Marshall  16:23  I was just gonna ask you, how do you know if someone actually knows how to do? Well, you Blake Beus  16:27  got to you got to interview them and ask them. And I mean, look, I've been doing this kind of stuff for a long time. But I haven't actually ever set up a server side. But I read through all of their instructions. And I understand every bit of the process. And I've done the exact same process just with something else, right. So I'm 100% confident that I could launch this, get it set up and everything, I've done all of the puzzle pieces, I just haven't done it with this software package. So that's one way to do it. The third thing is, is a lot of people don't know this. But companies like Google and Amazon, they have an entirely different side of their business. Okay. So with Amazon, it's called Amazon Web Services. Yes. And what it is, is it's for hosts, it's for hosting servers, web servers, databases, all of these things. And they own the physical infrastructure. But you own the server, which is basically a think of it like a virtual machines server running on their hardware, but it's your, you have to maintain it and everything. Google has the exact same thing. And it's called GCP, Google Cloud Platform. And it's for web servers, right, and you can, you can set up web servers, starting, I even have a free tier, okay, so as long as you don't hit a certain like traffic threshold or bandwidth threshold, you don't have to pay anything for your first server. And I think you can only use one of one of those at a time or whatever. So reading through the documentation on Google Cloud Platform, they said that 99.9% of use cases, the free tier for server side, Google Tag Manager is fine, it's fine. So you don't even have like an extra cost associated with this. Now, Google Cloud Platform, they may even have like a one click Provisioning Service as part of it for Google Tag Manager, what that means is you basically hop in there and say, Okay, I want a server on your free tier, I want a virtual server. And I want you to install all the software, I need to run Google Tag Manager server side, go. And then it has a bunch of scripts behind the scenes that and I'm gonna get nerdy here, behind the scenes, that's going to install Ubuntu, probably 2022 Server Edition, it's going to put the web server software on there, which is probably a software called nginx, they're going to they're going to put your file management software on there. And then they're going to put, you know, open open up the firewall port so that you have the secure traffic that can come into that. And then they will after all of that provisioning is done. They will then install the Google Tag Manager software and they'll say you're done. What domain Do you want this to point to? And then you pointed to that domain, and then they'll give you a login. Got it. But that is your server, even though it's on their whatever on their physical hardware cloud, that is your server to own and maintain. And that's your database of data. And that's your domain name, and that's yours Greg Marshall  19:30  data. And how do you so you've used a word that I think is important to what type of maintenance does it require from a technical side? Do you need to be doing something to make sure that it's up today? That's working the way it's supposed? Yeah. Blake Beus  19:48  So So typically, when you own your own server in a virtualized environment like this, you are responsible for server updates and a server operating system, and then code updates and things things a lot Along those lines, I went, whenever I spin up a server like this, I usually use a service called Digital Ocean. They're one of my favorites, that they they host the server and I can spin up a server as needed. But then I also use an external service that I pay 15 bucks a month for, that will install security updates, it will notify me of things going on behind the scenes or whatever. And that's for a specific, that's for a specific kind of technology stack, that service wouldn't work necessarily for Google Cloud Platform. That being said, Google Cloud Platform does have some services that can help auto install updates and things along those lines. And you Greg Marshall  20:37  would pay for that you would say like to like, add, like, I want this or that? Or maybe it kind Blake Beus  20:43  of depends, I wouldn't be surprised if for their free tier for this service for this offering. If Google has some sort of a way to just say, Yes, I want you to do automatic server updates, and not charge you for it. Because, frankly, it's in their best interest to do so like, they want people to continue to use Google Tag Manager, they want people to continue to use their platform and their service and everything. And so they're incentivized to make it as easy as possible for for that to happen. But it's definitely going to be more technical than just using the regular Google tablets people are used to Yeah, so but I think it's approachable. For anybody that has the ability to learn new things and learn a new skill, I think it's probably going to be quite approachable for someone like Greg Marshall  21:28  them. Well, it sounds like to the next wave, you know, how social media marketing was a big wave early on. And, you know, really picked up. I think the next wave is going to be this the actual technical side of implementing, because of all these changes. Yeah. And I think there's some big opportunities for you know, for guys like you that already have corporate experience and, and entrepreneurial experience with how to code all this and how to make it safe. Yeah, and not break. Right. And all that I think, I think there's going to be a big shift in needing that, right? Because it sounds like most of the platforms are in fact, before we started recording that I asked you a question about like, Well, how do you even figure out like, Tik Tok their retargeting was asking for, and I can't remember something about like an advertiser ID. Yeah, suddenly advertiser ID and I said, Well, how does someone even figure that out? Yeah, you don't? I mean, and so I think that those are the types of questions that are gonna happen. And you're gonna start seeing maybe a higher. In fact, you're working with a couple of companies that hired you for these types of things, right, that they're actually hiring outside consultants, to make sure that they can come in and do a lot of does it stuff because they don't know. Yeah, Blake Beus  22:52  well, exactly. I think if you're even a small, you know, media buyer agency or something like that, it'd be worth trying to build a relationship with someone that's more technical, because the these two sides of things, the technical side of things, the DevOps, the software engineering side, are and the the the marketing the media buying side, those two things are going to become more and more more intertwined, as we go down the road. And so having either a working relationship with someone who's doing that as Freelancer consulting, or bringing someone that's good in house to help with that is going to be very important. Greg Marshall  23:31  You know, it's funny, you'll probably remember this. So remember, there was like a, I don't know, maybe a two year stint where growth hacking was like a, like a term that was being thrown around everywhere. And I remember there was an integration of where, like the Ubers, and Airbnb, they were pairing up with software engineers and marketers to like, make the ultimate Yeah, marketing machines, right. And then for some reason, it felt like that went away. And I'm not 100% Sure, maybe, you know, but it just felt like you should have stopped hearing about like growth hacking just kind of went away. But it sounds like it's gonna move back to that. But on a more, I guess, long term basis, meaning growth hacking is probably not sustainable. As far as like, there's no real hacks that you can do for the long term. No. But utilize it. But the philosophy I think, is a good one, which is pair up marketing and salespeople with, you know, engineers. Yeah. And then have the engineers how does that like, say, we need this and the engineer knows how to actually build it correctly? Yeah. I think that's gonna be a big one, two punch. Oh, and a lot of companies move forward. Blake Beus  24:50  Absolutely. Absolutely. And, I mean, as far as growth hacking going away, a lot of the things they were doing back then was were very short sighted. I mean, you had Uber or Airbnb. rallies, they really just wanted to get their business to a point where they could either exit or go public. And they did that. And now they've got to sit down for the long haul. And they've both struggled in big ways in that, because they did a bunch of shortcuts to get to that exit. But I mean, back on topic, it is going to be a big one two punch to pair that together. And it's not a new strategy. I mean, I can't remember where I first heard this, but the intersection of, of, you know, creativity, and logic, logic and technical capabilities is where a lot of magic really happens. And if we, if we look in completely different industries, what was Pixar was one of the first where they had the story writers and the artboard creators in they forced them to be in the same room as the 3d modelers and the technical people. And that's why they kept creating just this insane stuff, because the intersection of a lot of those ideas was where the innovation actually started happening. Yep. And it's, it's going to be the same with, you know, media buying, marketing and everything. And this, and frankly, this is one of the reasons we kind of started this podcast was for this exact same thing. Because this is where a lot of the magic happens. I as a software guy, I mean, I've done my fair share of marketing, but as a software engineering guy and DevOps guy, there's a lot of times I don't think about certain aspects. And then you will say, hey, Blake, have you ever thought about this, and it gets me thinking about how I could get results or better results from a technical standpoint. But I would never have thought of that, had you not pointed it out, and then the same back via yours, right? When I start talking about technical things, you start thinking about, well, wait a minute, if we need to do this, and this, maybe if I structure my campaigns like this, we will then give the machine learning AI and the correct triggers it needs to do whatever it is, and then you go test it and confirm or disprove that. Right? Greg Marshall  27:07  Here's something this is this is something that I think yours and I situation, I think is unique, where we automatically kind of, I think respect each other's opinion on our kind of expertise. But I says with giant butt because I think these two roles, probably industry wide, but heads up in a way right similar to like how I know like in a traditional like salespeople, and operators, or salespeople and accountants and stuff like that, they have two different views of the other profession. And normally, it's not a positive one, right? It's like, well, these salespeople, they're a bunch of idiots. They say anything just to get the sale and and operations as to clean it up. Yeah. And then vice versa, the operations they don't know how to sell. Right? And so what are some ways that before I even go into that, would you agree? Oh, lately, yeah, it's probably like technical and sales and vice versa. There's, Blake Beus  28:08  there's always head butting between, like, all lump all it together. And then like creatives, marketing, or whatever. I've seen that I've experienced that when I've been working in corporate. Luckily, I've worked at a lot of places where there was very quickly built some mutual respect there. And I think that there needs to be some understanding, you're both experts in your own area. And instead of saying, that's a dumb idea why why would changing the button color? Why should I spend 20 minutes hopping in there changing the button color, putting a commit in there, and then pushing that out to the website? That's not gonna make any difference? But you're over here? Well, I want to measure if that makes a difference. Yeah. Greg Marshall  28:49  You know, and kind of the funny thing is, because because I know just how I come a lot from the sales sides. I know how salespeople who do not understand technical, how almost ignorant, we can sound when you say, Hey, can't you just do this? Like, I should just take five minutes? Yeah, can you just code this really fascinate me the next Facebook and then we can test it? If it don't work? Just make Instagram next, right? It's like, there's a huge ask for things that you don't understand. Right? Yep. And you assume like, oh, they just don't want to do or vice versa? Well, why can't you give me a more structured idea of what I've made this mistake so many times on in front of not providing enough detail to even allow an engineer and engineer minded individual, the tools necessary to build something, right, because they can't just, they're not just gonna build it. They don't know what the idea is. Right? You know what I mean? Like, you can't just say, hey, build me something that gets me more sales. That could be who knows what? And the engineer themselves, I believe understands. That's gonna take a lot of time. Yeah. And so they want to lie. I for sure know what the plan is because they know it's going to take time to build it. Is that correct? Blake Beus  30:06  Yeah, absolutely. And, and part of the reason is, is because when you're in the middle of engineering something, there's a bunch of tiny little, and no one talks about this. So I'm actually kind of glad we're talking about yeah, there's a bunch of tiny little micro decisions you have to make about how you structure something, because that's going to have long term impacts in six months, or whatever. And so not having enough context means, okay, I can build something that looks like that. But then in six months, I didn't quite fully understand what the larger vision was. So I made a couple of micro decisions early on, that now are making it way harder to do XY and Z. That was part of the plan all the time. Yep. And, and so now we've, we've, we've come at an impasse, and it's become hard to maintain and blah, blah, blah, but it does, it does exist the other way as well, because a lot of engineers will say, you'll, you can say something like, alright, we need a signup form. All right, I'll make a signup form. And it's ugly and hard to use. And the labels are off to the side instead of overtop, so on mobile, it doesn't quite look right. But they're like, but it works. Yeah. And, and that's where engineers need to say, but hold on, we're creating this to help like the customer, the visitor, whatever, which ultimately helps both of us. And so we need to lean on some expertise out there, to make sure that what's being built is not only just functional, yep. But it's it's easy to use, intuitive for the customer, and all of those things. And so that's where the mutual respect needs to come together. Greg Marshall  31:42  Well, and it's funny, I've worked with many, you know, many people in the kind of the engineering, more development type, individual that builds the stuff that actually works. And the, what I've learned is you have to be I've learned to become more, what is the empathetic or what not to what I'm saying? And how is being interpreted? Right, right. Because one thing I know, there's, whenever you're a professional in your field, I think there's a level of kind of, what's the word like Terrot, territorialism, like, Hey, listen, you know, like this, this is my space here. You don't I mean, like, I know what I'm doing, right? Because you do. Yeah. And see, there's a level so sometimes when there are suggestions being made, it could feel like it's an attack you Oh, yeah. Right. But but it's actually not. And so, one thing I try to stay very conscious of is when I'm speaking to engineer, people, engineer minded, and I'm just kind of buckling everyone in their technical space in that, but to make sure that I'm communicating in no way, am I criticizing what you're doing? I'm just speaking out loud. So you have enough information, right, to digest it and build it. And I'm thinking if there's an individual out there right now, or our first conversation was very rough. And it's because I didn't think thoroughly enough, because I assumed I assumed he knew what I meant by what I was saying. Like he knew like, my intent was not that I didn't actually voice that first. And this is a brand new relationship. Yeah. So I made the critical mistake of assuming I have credibility automatically with someone who has no idea who I am, Blake Beus  33:36  right? Well, and let's. And let's be clear on both sides of this fence here. There are jerks, they're idiots, right, like, and there are people that give both sides a bad name. And so that does happen. But I think as long as both sides are willing to even just spend 30 minutes reading up on what goes into media buying and what goes into attribution as an engineer, will put you in such a better place and for media buyers, or whatever, spending 30 minutes about what an engineer has to do to to whatever can can help and Greg Marshall  34:19  a day in the life of you know what they say when they say walk in someone else's shoes? Oh, yeah, very easy to tell people what to do when you don't have to do it or have never experienced that. Yeah. But in every profession and role there are pressures. And there's different types of pressures and demands. Yeah, that come from these roles. And if you give your if you allow yourself to work in these roles in a day or two, you may only last a few hours. Because you'll learn really quickly. Oh, this is not as easy as it as this person is making it look yeah, because they're a professional that space. Blake Beus  34:57  A long time. I mean, I've I've been doing time Next, the tech side of things for 20 years now, Greg Marshall  35:02  so long, it's not gonna look like someone will watch you do something and go, Oh, that's got to be in five minutes. But taking 20 years and making five minutes, Blake Beus  35:12  and you've been you've been doing sales and marketing for probably about the same amount of time, right, like a long time, a very long time. And, and so, yeah, it's worth sharing that mutual respect. But yeah, I mean, we're, we're a little bit long on this. So why don't why don't we wrap it up? Greg Marshall  35:32  Respect your engineer? Yeah. Blake Beus  35:35  Media Buyers there. But I would say just to wrap circle back to the initial conversation, where we're talking about server side, Google Tag Manager, yep, I'm confident we're going to see more and more and more of this stuff, where your your platform is going to need, you're going to need to have some ownership over that server. So that's first party data, I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing this with analytics. In fact, we already are seeing this with analytics, there's some projects out there where, where you have to maintain your own server, but you get a lot better tracking, because you own it, it's first party data, we're going to start seeing, we might start seeing this with email marketing, that will be a really interesting one for me. So I'm going to be keeping my eye on that. But I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing it with that. We might might start seeing it with with all sorts of sorts of other things website hosting. And I mean, we already see that website hosting, we'll see more and more and more of it. So yeah, Greg Marshall  36:38  well, I think you know, this this episode, we've kind of covered the importance of new technology, and essentially what to do and who to look for when you need these because it's important there, this is only going to get more and more critical for businesses, as the years go on, not less. Yep, absolutely. And so it's, it's, it'd be a good idea now to start thinking about what's your technology plan, moving forward with all of this data, because you just want to be prepared, you don't want to be the business that is not thinking about this, and your competitors are, and then they, you know, speed right past you, because you didn't take the time to learn how the markets actually move. Yeah, Blake Beus  37:23  I think there's no harm in just setting up one of these servers yourself and going through their process. Because you can because they're a virtual server, you can create it, you can destroy it, you can create it again, you can destroy it again. It's, it's not like they're there. They're basically kind of disposable. So there's no harm in going to Google's documentation page and just saying, Alright, let's just go through these steps, we'll we'll sign up, we'll sign in, and then I'll install it on a website and see if we get data if it doesn't troubleshoot, or try to figure it out. Again, there's no harm in that there's only good that can come out of going through that process, even if you're not a super technical person. Because number one, you'll you'll have a good understanding about what the process takes number two, you'll you'll have a good understanding when you're interviewing someone to help you with that maybe at work or something, you'll you'll be able to know if they're full of shit, Greg Marshall  38:13  or you don't want to get taken. Blake Beus  38:17  And number three, you might realize, oh, this is something I can handle myself. And now it's a new service I can offer for my clients. And because it worked well for me, I can spin it up in 2030 minutes, but it's a huge value offer for my clients, even though I'm just maybe maybe a media buyer and I'm not a tech person. So Greg Marshall  38:33  well I think if you need help with this, where do we go? Blake Beus  38:38  Or you can just use go to Blake You can you can reach out to me on there and yeah, that'd be a good way they can reach out to you as Greg Marshall  38:48  well. Yeah, you can go to a Greg Marshall Dotco you can book a strategy session call but when it comes to the technical side, I'm going to do it for you. Blake Beus  38:58  And you can you can join SM three which is a group on social media marketing. Yeah, where we cover topics for from beginners to experts. Yep. And everything in between. So Greg Marshall  39:13  well. I hope you guys enjoyed this. This episode. Make sure to subscribe to our channel anywhere you see it. Yeah. All right. Blake Beus  39:20  We'll catch you guys later. Bye.  

Friday Jun 03, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript   Greg Marshall  0:00  Well, Blake Beus  0:01  you're gonna start off. Greg Marshall  0:02  Let's do this three times get moving. So we were talking right before we started and we had a, we had a situation. What was this two years ago? Or is it three years? Yeah, I can't remember. Blake Beus  0:14  I do remember it was January 2020. Because it like kicked off the year. From Hell yes. For me, my business and millions and billions of other people, but it's what started 2020 For me, Greg Marshall  0:33  we shouldn't know. Blake Beus  0:34  We shouldn't know. It was a bad. Yeah, Greg Marshall  0:37  something was gonna throw Blake Beus  0:38  in the towel move out in the middle of nowhere for two years, and then finally come back to it and start over. Greg Marshall  0:44  Well, basically, what happened was, Blake and I have been running ads successfully for the whole year. 2019. Yeah, Blake Beus  0:52  well, actually, we started in May of 2019. Yeah. And we started so this was only from May to December. That's right. And, Greg Marshall  1:01  yeah, but we were having a good amount of success with our ads. They were pretty consistent. There were some times I'm up and down, of course, like, like, there always is with Facebook. But there was a particular time that we still refer to now. Yeah, that was like, I still remember. Because wasn't it? If it wasn't New Year's Eve, it was Blake Beus  1:24  around that time, it was New Year's Eve. New Year's Eve was the biggest single revenue day. I remember the specific numbers because we texted each other right after New Year, like the date. Oh, no, it was might have been right after midnight. Because I think, Greg Marshall  1:42  yeah, we I know for a fact we have both been drinking some champagne. Together. But at some point, because i That's why I think it wasn't a year, it was the Blake Beus  1:51  first day we were we were $5 Short of hitting us $5,000 in a single day. But here's a kick in sales. This is the kick on one product, this one digital product that spend a fortune that no worries, what was our ad spend 1500 bucks, I'd have to go back it was. Greg Marshall  2:11  I don't think we hit that for that day. I don't think we hit even maybe it came in higher than 1000. Blake Beus  2:18  Yeah, it was I mean, it gets a gap was I remember one day, I was like, wow, this is it was a huge thing. The return Greg Marshall  2:24  was was a mess. You know, we should go back and take a look. It might have been under $1,000. Because I remember the return on asthma was unbelievable, unreal, binary. I didn't actually believe it. I actually I remember reaching out to them saying like, Did you do a bunch of test purchases or something like because the revenue was really high. And then the infamous and I'm sure this half a lot of you guys out there especially ones that are getting great results. Yeah, our Ad Account got what banned, banned. And what? Blake Beus  3:00  They gave us the biggest generic reason whatsoever. They said there was my not their words, it was basically fishy activity. Like we've noticed some unusual activity on your account and banned us and then wouldn't unbanned us never. We had the we had to launch a brand new ad account and everything. And, and they banned us that first week. So it was the week of the January the first week of January is, is when we got banned, I got banned and then like got put back in and then banned and then permanently banned. And they said there's nothing you can do. We are never going to put this on ban your accounts, you just need to start a new account. And it was absolutely insane. Greg Marshall  3:47  I remember just kind of thinking, what kind of I guess response that was from Facebook saying, because I remember speaking with Blake and actually asking, like, did we put anything that's against Terms of Service in any shape or form because all we were doing was selling the calendar? Blake Beus  4:07  It was yeah, it was the I called it the social media content plan. It was just a two year social media calendar ever had with holidays. Delivery was instant. Like it's not like we were selling it and then not giving it to people like on the thank you page. You had a download link and we emailed you a download link in case you put your email in wrong. Greg Marshall  4:29  Like here's the odd thing about it, which we still to this day don't know actually what happened. No, we started a new ad account. That account has never been banned. Same product, same product and the product that they banned. We have been promoting for the previous at least together for six to eight months. Yeah. And we for that. You did it for another six months or so. Right? Blake Beus  4:54  Well, it was it once I started selling it. It was pretty. It was scaled pretty fast. I remember I launched it the like may 2 of 2019. And I remember that day specifically just because at a call with a friend before, and he's like, why have you launched this yet? I think you're afraid to have success. Yeah, are afraid of failure. And I was like, Okay, fine, I'm gonna put it out there. And I started, I started making sales. And so I knew it was the first week of May. And then in January is when it had been, but in between that time, we had done over $300,000 in sales, which was kind of mind blowing to me. Yeah, on this one product. And it was literally just me. And then I hired Greg to help manage my anxieties, my advertising anxiety, but he would help run the ads. And I brought you in to help I think about a month and a half or two months after I started selling it, because I wasn't sleeping at night. Yeah, Greg Marshall  5:51  well, it's because that's, that's a marketers world. You're constantly thinking and you know, you want to make sure everything works out well. And so you get concerned. But think of it we have sold this product without anything getting banned, with the exception of the time that it was absolutely crushing it for us. Yeah. And so we really, what are your thoughts on what really happened because I had this happen to one other client, where his ad account got banned. And it was absolutely crushing it. So what is the incentive you think, for an ad platform to shut you down? And then I'm going to share what I heard on a podcast that would make this make sense. Okay. So my, Blake Beus  6:44  I mean, I thought about, like, it was so maddening, because I felt like, we did it, Greg, we cracked the code, all we need to do is like do scaling up keep scaling, I wouldn't even care if we just kept it at 5000 measly dollars. Yeah. Right? Because it was just me, I had a VA helped me with customer support. And you yep, that's great. We'll just keep kind of very profitable. Obviously, it's fantastic, right, like keep overhead low, no need to go nuts. And so I've thought a lot, a lot a lot about it. So one of the changes we made in December, I feel like was something that had triggered this impact. So one of the strategic decisions we made, decided to act on in about November was to basically launched the calendar worldwide got an include holidays from like, the most active top 20 or 30 countries that are active on Facebook, right. So we did some research, I put together holiday lists so that people could pick holidays relevant for their countries. And I didn't do any translations. But I did record a video on how people could translate the calendar very quickly using an add on in Google Sheets in two different languages, so they could adapt it quite easily. But we launched those changes to a worldwide audience. The middle of December, yep. And what we saw was that our cost per purchase dropped dramatically by the last week of December. So our average cost per purchase was around 20 to $30, depending on ad group, and depending on country, and we were targeting at this time we were targeting Australia, United States, Canada, and then a couple of English speaking Europe, European countries, right. So UK and whatever, just nothing too crazy. But when we launched it worldwide, our cost per purchase went down to like $3. And the average order value was like 55 $60. Yep. And our upsell, right. Yeah, we had we had some upsells afterwards or whatever. And my guess is that Facebook algorithm somewhere was like, There's no way they could have that big of an improvement. They must be cheating. We don't know how. But this is impossible. So they're cheating. Banham. Got it. That's the only thing I can come up with, because we didn't change anything else. Yeah, Greg Marshall  9:12  I mean, the ACA was said even the ad we use the same ad was the same app Blake Beus  9:16  we've been. We've been running that ad for like six months. Yeah. It had it had like 150,000 likes. Oh, yeah. Greg Marshall  9:25  Yeah. Who knows how many shares? I mean, this thing was, Blake Beus  9:30  how many millions? Yeah, freshmen. It's probably like three and we weren't making like outrageous claims, right? Sometimes you get banned for saying, you know, 10 10x, your investment FS or whatever. It wasn't that it wasn't Greg Marshall  9:42  even a money return, like get a return on your investment. None of that. It was literally this is a content calendar. So we're gonna help us on social Blake Beus  9:50  media. That's it and we did say in order to get followers you need to post consistently and this calendar helps you post consistently so we kind of connected the dots there. We didn't guarantee your promise followers or anything like that. But that's the only thing I can think of is that it triggered some sort of thing in their algorithm. And then they looked at and they're like, We don't know what these guys are doing, but they're definitely cheating because that's impossible. So and bandas Greg Marshall  10:14  here's here's kind of, so I listened to a podcast. One of my favorite podcasts is shout out to the perpetual traffic. It's Blake Beus  10:21  a good one. Is it? Is it Molly? Molly's no luck. Greg Marshall  10:25  And so it's funny because she ran. She started it, though she did, but now she's the CEO of smart marketer when she still comes on though. Right. But Ralph, and Qassam, okay, so listen to them a whole lot. Here's a funny thing about what you just said. So Qassam is very sensitive to people bringing you up. Because someone left like a really bad review. Other ones like, Who is this hack? Volley was way better? Raise it up brutal. People can be but I really liked their content. I like both. Both the gentlemen Anna Casa brought up a point. And he was I can't remember if he was talking with his business partner or another data guy. But they had mentioned how there's cost of traffic restrictions. Okay, I'm gonna go and meet either. And they had mentioned like, that Google who? So he didn't mention Facebook, but I kind of thought of Facebook as well, that Google has some level of the traffic cannot be below XML. Really? Yes. And so it's, it's some level of cost control, like they wouldn't give give you like Penny clicks, and you know, like $1 conversions, because I would be like, to barely Blake Beus  11:47  be losing money at that point, or whatever, you're basically saying that there's no cost control, I would say protecting our profits, right, we can't give, we can't give traffic away that cheap, because we built an infrastructure and to generate this traffic and Greg Marshall  12:03  exact Okay, so that's basically saying is there some level, he didn't mention what it is, but that there's some level of a cost control that you can't go below. And that made me think of our scenario with the counters? Is it that the costs became so low that they banned the account, because we have basically figured out how to get traffic really low? Because that would make sense. The other ad account that I was referring to, we were getting free, I mean, for the average order value we're getting, we're getting really low cost at scale. So they're spending about $1,000 A day at our peak, and we were getting cost of purchase that. I want to say they're around 13 or $14 for like a $70 average order value, cold traffic. Really, yeah, call and consistent area at that cost. And then they finally just like shuts down. And so Blake Beus  13:01  was that a physical product or digital product? Okay, Greg Marshall  13:05  so the question I have, or maybe that's what we ran into? Maybe that's like the answer to what happened is maybe the cost control, maybe we got it to be too low. Yeah. And so that's what ended up getting us banned. And maybe there is some kind of internal, like, the traffic must cost this. Yeah, no matter what. Or we can't sell it. Blake Beus  13:29  Yeah. I mean, looking back. We should have launched worldwide on a different ad account. Yeah. You know, deepest thoughts about that. Yeah. So here's, I ran into the same problem, probably because we, because it was such a huge, we had we had built all of this good data on the account and based on these countries, right, United States, Canada, Australia, UK, that those countries, even though there's a lot of differences, there's a lot of similarities. Probably in the social media world, between the country, those countries and the data you're getting from those countries, right? And when you go worldwide, it's it's so much more diverse. And it was I mean, literally, we were just saying anywhere in the world, like our ad ad targeting was anywhere in the world. For people that are interested in social media, like I think that was it, it was so broad. I mean, our audience size was like 50 million or something like that. I think it was even bigger. It was a bear that I was hundreds of millions, like it was huge. But our cost per traffic. I mean, one of the main reasons we dropped the cost per acquisition so low is our CPMs. Yeah, our CPMs went from I don't know the exact numbers, but it was probably like $20 Greg Marshall  14:48  in the US. It was we were averaging 26 CPM, okay, on a high day before, Blake Beus  14:55  okay, but then we went worldwide, the CPMs went down to like a buck. Yeah. And so you're probably right, because that's I mean, that's the metric that they use to determine how much we need to pay Facebook. Right? That's, that's the key metric that they use to determine how much we pay. And so far CPMs go from 20 to 40, down to $1. I'm sure they're like, what's going on? What's going on here? And have we launched that on a separate ad account and built new data surrounding that? Right, because I would have been more stable and our our, our CPMs, probably wouldn't have been a buck. But they probably would have been two or three, which is still great. Yep. Greg Marshall  15:43  So that's actually a great point. And maybe that's where we can receive some closure and peace of mind. To know that, because of that, big CPM drop, maybe that's the cause of and the other thing, so here's a higher level question. So my guess is that's probably what happened. So because I know de peche talks about having separating ad accounts, based on not just like, like tier one and tier two coaches. Right, right. He talks about that. I can't remember where but I know him saying that. This year, I remember thinking like, why would I do that? Why don't I just keep it all on account. But now that makes sense. Yeah. The other thing? What's the incentive for? Like, if, let's say, for example, you figure out how to get really low cost per purchases, and you'd like really getting great results. What's the incentive for an app platform to essentially penalize you for that? What's, why would they want to do that? I guess, is my question. Yeah, I'm like, like you're almost to success. Blake Beus  16:54  So this is something that's mystifying to a lot of people until you really start to think think about it. So here's, here's how I view it. Let's talk about Facebook, specifically, because this was a Facebook issue, most of our ad spend was going into Facebook, we did have some traffic, some ads in Google, but most of it was going into Facebook. I'm if I'm getting traffic so cheap. I'm stealing eyeballs, from other advertisers that aren't able to get get it that cheap. Therefore, if I'm getting CPMs for a buck, but everybody else is paying two or three. Facebook is basically could could two or 3x, their return on their investment by banning my account and giving the traffic to other advertisers? Right. And so at the end of the day, even at $1,000 a day, from a Facebook standpoint, that's peanuts. Yeah. Like that's the crumbs on the floor. They don't even care about my ad spend. Yep. They care about well, we're giving this guy $1 CPMs. Everybody else is paying us three or four? Yeah, why wouldn't we just 3x that and then ban this account? And give them some vague reason? Because we don't care? Yep. And we take them out a lot. Yeah, make them realize, when we re launched, we never could replicate those results. Yep. Like, it was almost like they had tagged us saying, don't don't give these guys because even if you realize your ad account is tied to my Facebook account. So even if I have a new ad account, they're like, well, this guy's relaunching the same thing. It's the same ad, whatever, don't give him the same results, whatever. Right? And I don't know Greg Marshall  18:30  what's interesting about what you're saying is this one other client that we like, really get down to, it's the same thing, it's almost like, our CPMs have not been able to even come close to even like, there's even other ad accounts that have the low, much lower CPMs. And this one, no matter what we do with it. So it's like, it's almost like you are tagged Blake Beus  18:56  somehow. It's, it's gotta be and whether that's an intentional thing or an unintentional thing. Who knows? Who knows? But the fact of the matter is, is algorithmically, it's not too terribly hard to say, well, this person has had an ad account banned. Yep. So that's part of the algorithm on who I get the CCF. Yep. And, and we were never able to replicate that plus and then and then 2020 20 Hit like people's buying behaviors changed. Yep. Big time. Yep. Right. People started staying home. Initially, we saw a little bit of a bump. Yeah, back in February, March, we saw a bump in sales. Because a lot of people are working from home and we're thinking, well, I need a social media presence. They kind of realized a few things. And so we bought saw a bit of a bump, but by May June, like when things were really getting locked down and a lot of countries especially when we say worldwide control, right, like in America, things were still whatever but in other countries around the world, there was like hard lock downs, and people were were struggling financially and buying a social media calendar was not top They're lists. And if you remember, it was hard to get in many countries is hard to get food. Yep, in America here was hard to get toilet paper out, because that makes sense. I don't understand. Right, like, and it just wasn't on people's minds. And so. So that was, you know, the domino effect. And we ended up shifting the business model and kind of turning it into what we have now, which is SM three, which is a subscription where people can get help over time and be part of a community to help with things. But Greg Marshall  20:29  but interesting, right? I mean, yeah, like, in fact, going through this story, I just realized, I have three clients like that, oh, really is another client, but we have gotten her to bounce back. But I think the reason is because we're implementing Facebook wants, you know, on on app purchases, because we're using that that's where I think we're getting on app purchases. Blake Beus  20:55  So you're actually listing the product inside of Facebook, and you're selling it inside of Facebook. Is it a physical product? Again? Is it a physical product, Greg Marshall  21:04  and they're the big push is Shopify stores, Facebook sends out $3,000 Free ads, man, with the caveat, it has to be on app purchase. So my guess is Facebook is in heavy development right now. How to bypass ever forever, any other platforms, Apple or some computer, whatever, banning them from being able to optimize for purchases. So right, my guess is Facebook has probably got this dialed in, and getting closer and closer that probably by next year, we'll see more like, Hey, you can get really low cost for purchases. Yeah, if you just do everything, Blake Beus  21:43  I think they want to be a fully fledged e commerce platform, in addition to social media. Yep. And you can see that in Instagram, which is owned by Facebook and Instagram products. And that was only to a limited group of people for a long time. But in the last six to eight months, yep. Basically, anybody can can launch and make Instagram, your, your ecommerce platform. And it's interesting, they're going that way. Me personally, I really struggled with it, because we got banned. Yeah, if my whole store and my whole revenue model depends on Facebook, and then they ban you and give you well, you violated some terms and conditions, without any recourse on how to how to get that back. That's a pretty brittle business model. Greg Marshall  22:27  And fully a business. No, it's channel, it's a channel channel. Blake Beus  22:33  It's a channel and the same thing with like, Amazon's been doing this for a long time with E commerce. There's there's people that have, you've probably seen the courses too if you're if you're on Facebook, like hey, sorry, Amazon FBA says door right, like do this. You can, it's easy, they'll even hold the products for you. But that whole supply chain was basically owned by Amazon, you could hold the products in an Amazon warehouse, listed on Amazon, sell it on Amazon. But that whole model is pretty brittle, brittle. Because if Amazon ends up not liking you, yep, we'll see you later. Or Amazon chooses to take your product and say, well, that's a great product, we're gonna make an Amazon Basics version of that, and then sell it for Greg Marshall  23:11  less he did, and that how pay us your money for their market research, their market Blake Beus  23:16  research and everything. And so that's a brutal position. So if you do something like that, realize this is a house of cards. Yeah. And it's an OK way to get started to maybe get some capital to kind of expand into other channels. But one of the things I've started to see is that even though Facebook and Amazon are kind of trying to scoop up as much as the era commerce market, since we're talking about, you know, physical products, I've seen a lot more businesses say we need our own channel. Yeah, we need our own email list. And we need to own this whole process ourself. And I've seen consumers too, especially those consumers that are a little bit more progressive, a little bit more tech savvy or whatever, actively trying to buy from a company's store site instead of on Amazon, even if they're lifted listed in both places. I, my boy, he was telling me he turned 16 This week, and he's starting to get into airsoft. So he's been researching airsoft guns, and he saw some on Amazon. And we hopped over to the company's website. And they're like 30%, less on Amazon on their on their own websites than they are on Amazon. And that makes sense because Amazon takes like 30% of your sale. Yep. So Greg Marshall  24:36  Well, I think you know, the the future is, you know, I think it's going to shift like always digital marketing is always going to shift but we just wanted to basically share the story. Yeah, I have to tell you that. If you do run into this, don't feel bad. Blake Beus  24:50  Don't reach out. Reach out to Greg it happened. He's he's a good therapist. You can lay down on his couch, Greg Marshall  24:57  lay down on the couch and we'll discuss how Facebook is deadly wrong. Again, Facebook's Like a bad relationship. Oh, it Blake Beus  25:04  is a toxic relationship. But it is worth pointing out, like expanded a diff different channels find a way to make different channels. If we had not been leaning so heavily on just Facebook, if this wouldn't have had as big of an impact, it still would have sucked. But it wouldn't have been as big of an impact. And it's hard. It's hard to do that. Because you're, you're pulled in so many different directions. But start thinking about that start expanding start thinking of ways to, to do it. And yeah, that's well, hopefully Greg Marshall  25:32  you guys enjoyed today's story. You know, we'd love to hear from you if you've experienced this yourself, because I know there's plenty of ad Facebook advertisers out there that run into this problem. Oh, absolutely. And we're not the only one. So. But yeah, so Blake, how can people get a hold of Blake Beus  25:49  you just go to Blake We already kind of mentioned the SM3 group that Greg's hopped on board with that. But that's the place where you get direct access to me in the community surrounding just social media marketing, including organic marketing tactics and advertising tactics. And there's some courses included and things like that, but keep an eye on that for sure. Greg Marshall  26:07  Yeah. And if you want to get in touch with me, Greg You can book a free strategy session. And we'll go from there. Until next time, Blake Beus  26:14  I'll catch you guys later. We'll see it  

Wednesday May 25, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript Greg Marshall  0:00  We'll find the offer. All right. Blake Beus  0:04  All right, let's do it. Here we go. So Well, I mean, we were talking again, we say this every time we were talking before we turned the camera on to record this. But you were saying a lot of you've had a lot of people reach out to you. In regards to lots of things, but one of the things you've bumped into is having a too complex of an offer. Yes. And like, what what do you mean by that? Greg Marshall  0:31  So what we tend to do, is, we overthink probably coming from my sales background, it's like overselling, you think that you have to sound massively complicated for the person to take you serious, you're right, instead of just dumbing it down, okay, and having them understand what it is you're trying to communicate right away. And so I find this a lot where headlines are written, or things are written more so in a complex way where the person, the regular person you're trying to reach may not actually understand what you're trying to communicate. So they may be interested, okay, but then they don't know what it is that you're offering. And so I was talking to a client a few days ago, as we were, we were saying how, when someone lands on their page, does that first line, immediately tell me what, essentially what the promises? What am I going to get? Right? And when you know, and I had mentioned to to us before, before we start recording, and you're like, Yeah, I'm not really sure what that is. And I said, Exactly, Blake Beus  1:42  right. Like, the headline was something and this is from my perspective, right? So the headline was something along the lines of buy this thing. So you can be in the top 15% of graduates from this technical school or something like that. Right? Like, and you said, What does that mean to you? And I was like, I mean, I don't know if the top 15% means anything yet to me, like, what? Why am I going to this school? Am I going to the school to be in the top 15%. And this was, like a school that trained people for a career, right? It wasn't like a university or whatever, whatever, where you needed to get a scholarship or something like that. And so it was like, I was like, do I even care, I probably just care about passing and getting certified. Exactly. And not having to, like, lose money in the process or lose a bunch of time in the process or something like, that's more important to me than being in the top 15%? Well, right, Greg Marshall  2:45  you got to think that's probably most people. Right? Right. So it's similar to if I go to college? Well, do I want to be the valedictorian? Or do I just want to be able to get a high paying job? Yeah, graduate. And I would say, Blake Beus  2:56  most people, most of your customers, like if you're running a business, most of your customers, they don't care about being the valedictorian. There's only one of those Yeah, right. And that's a very small audience. Greg Marshall  3:08  And it's usually actually not the students, their parents, right. And, and it's Blake Beus  3:13  a hard promise to deliver. Like, if if I have a product or something that's like, I'm gonna make you literally the number one lawyer in the United States. Like, that's a tough delivery, but most lawyers don't care if they're number one, they just want to have a good income they want to see and succeed or, and help people in their targeted area or whatever, like, depending on on that industry. You've got to put the time and effort in there. And we've talked about putting the time and effort into your copywriting. But we haven't talked specifically about confusing offers. Greg Marshall  3:45  Yes, yeah. And what here's, here's like a little formula that you could use to simplify it simple, though, is best. Right? So your first line should should answer the question that's in the customer's head. For example, one of my clients sells fitness and it says, Are you struggling with losing weight and getting into shape? As soon as you read that, you know, what this is about to be? Right. Blake Beus  4:14  And you You're, you're making the reader self select? Yep. Meaning in their head, you're making them raise their hand and say, Ooh, this page is talking to me, or this page isn't for me, I'm gonna go somewhere else. And that's fine. You want people to be able to very quickly make that mental decision and qualify themselves, yeah, qualify themselves. And then once they've done that, the correct people will keep reading and those that aren't correct. We'll leave we'll leave which is what helps you like hone the algorithm, all these other things, like depending on how you set up all of that, but we don't want dive into technical bits too much. But yeah, Greg Marshall  4:50  I think the biggest thing you can do to make a better impact with your offers is ask a question that A customer is most likely asking themselves, okay, right, yeah, and then deliver some level of a promise and some timeframe. So if you could say, because you're essentially you have to send an or sell an end result. Yeah, you can't just sell like, you know, kind of a vague, you know, a vague deal. So, for example, if you say, Are you struggling with losing weight and getting into shape, etc, etc, this program that I'm about to share with you will be able to get you 60 pounds, right? So it's a concrete, you know, number, and then a timeframe and the next 90 days, right, so now people can go, yes, they can answer the question, yes, I'm struggling to, you know, losing weight, then the next question they are, the answer they can see is, I will lose 60 pounds. And in that timeframe, it's going to be 90 days, so they can actually go Alright, so I'm actually buying 60 pound weight loss and 90 day. Yeah, right. And then under that a sub headline you would then go into is, how are you going to deliver that that's when you get into the more logistics of the program has this program is that you know, set cetera, and then you go into the emotional triggers, right? So then you would then talk about the 60 pounds and how it's negatively impacting your life, and why you need to lose 60 pounds, right? But that's how you make an offer. It doesn't need to be crazy. It just needs to be simple to understand. And the consumer needs to know what I will get the end result. and in what timeframe, right? If you can ask a question, give what end result they'll get and then a timeframe. That's a form of yeah, that's, that's because it's easy to understand. And if you look at what we all purchase, when you go to a website, or wherever we buy, we tend to go through those, like checklists. Yep. Right? What am I actually buying? Right? And it all starts with that main, the main headline, right? Like, it all starts there. And that headline needs to be simple to understand. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be short. Yep. Right. Blake Beus  7:12  I've seen some long headlines that work really well. But it needs to be a simple concept. Because if there's, if there's confusion, the default response is no. Yeah, right. And we want the default response to be yes. Or a maybe yes. And they can continue further to see what that yes is. But if the default response is no, ie, if it's confusion, then then then you're not going to you're just not going to get those conversions. Right, exactly. And it's, it's not to go down a completely different path. But this is something that sits very much in the realm of behavioral economics. I don't know if you've studied that a whole lot, or looked into that a whole lot. But I'm a huge fan of the subject. And it's massively interesting. But if we can just make these offers simple, so the default is an easier Yes, than the default being confusion, right then and there, you're going to get, you're just going to get better results, better customers, better clients, whatever. Now, we talked about weight loss, because that's a very easy to kind of layout layout that works. And so you might be thinking, okay, so I do I do titles for mortgages, right? Like, how do I how do I do that? With something like titles? And it's actually the same thing? Who is your client? And customer? I don't know. It's not about titles. I just picked up an industry I thought was boring. But like, is it? Is it real estate agents? Is that loan officers, whichever those issues are, and he talks about, what are their biggest issues that they might have with existing title companies that they've worked with before? And then you say, Okay, are you struggling with this? Yep, we can do this in this amount of time, right? And then you go down there, and you have the book that call and chat with you or whatever, right? Well, let's Greg Marshall  8:57  even break down what you're saying. No matter what industry you're in, all you have to do to simplify is think, what is what does the consumer want? What's the end result? Right? And then you can say, How fast do they want? Right? Like, do they want it? We pretty much know the answer. Yes. Yeah. But how fast they want it which, which means you can compare it to the rest of the industry you're competing with, and can you get that accomplished in a shorter? It's all about shortening how long someone needs to wait for. Right? And then what is the main like problem that they're they're struggling with? Right? So if you really think about the number one pain point, so let's let's take a title company, right? So a title company, the consumer is probably overwhelmed with, you got to talk to a loan officer and a title company or escrow officer and you got to talk to a real estate agent. And there's all these moving parts, right? Well, what they don't want to do is have it consumed their entire life on it because They also have a family kids work all that, right. So that's what they don't want. So if you can communicate, this is a bit, you know, are you feeling overwhelmed with having to deal with 10 people and your real estate purchase? There's a question, then you would say, we offer a simple solution that can get you to only talk to one individual so that you don't have to do all the backend work, right? And we can close on your house, and 90 days, because that's what most of our clients are closing. So you follow the same formula, right? Are you feeling overwhelmed? Blake Beus  10:36  Then you tell him, You know what the problem we're gonna solve? And the timeframe? Yep, you do that for any industry, that will work. And of course, you have to make sure you can deliver what it is you say, just say, hey, in two days, we'll close your home. And you'll never talk to anyone, and it takes time. Yeah, and it doesn't always have to be like a question, right? The question is the easiest one. So if you're sitting, if you're sitting down to brainstorm some ways to simplify your offer message, it's usually easiest to start with a question. But it's very easy then to convert a question over into a statement, right? And that, so if you're like saying, Are you feeling overwhelmed with not being able to close on your home faster? You could be, you could just have something simpler, like, close on your home faster than industry standard? Yep. So you took that question, you turn it into a statement. And then you can add one of one of my favorite tricks is to add something like, which means in your head, at least, which means you'll get in your home faster, and you'll be able to enjoy the new home that you've been trying to purchase, right? So you can add these kind of little tricks and things in it, like I said, doesn't have to be a short message. But it just needs to be clear on what they're getting. And to be honest, I've struggled with this in the past, I'm not just saying, Hey, do this, because I've got it all down, and I'm a guru, and everything's perfect. Everybody struggles with it, like everybody does. Because it's so much easier to overthink. Yes, the offer message and everything. But if you can simplify all of that sit down, spend some dedicated time to just thinking about your headline. Yep. And you'll be good from there. And I think a bonus tip would be to take sit very similar headlines, or maybe rework that headline and use it in your ads. Yes. So they're seeing something very similar in your ad, and then on your landing page. And they might even just be a rewrite of the same sentence. Exactly. It doesn't have to be something super crazy. It could literally just be a rewrite of the exact same headline, just maybe switching some of the words around or making it a little more concise or something. Greg Marshall  12:33  Exactly. And I think the key thing is to what key words, ask yourself the question, what key words does the client need to hear? To identify with the statement? So it could be a question, it can be a statement can be a one liner can be a paragraph, but the key and you'll notice this in copywriting, they always highlight in the writing that key word that means the most to the consumer. So if you write a statement, you know close your house faster than industry standards or whatever it usually says like the highlight of words and close faster. Those would be the two Boldin, or words in italics or whatever Blake Beus  13:15  bolded, highlighted, italicized, they underline something, you can call those out different color. I've seen that I do that on my site and different color. Yeah, my headline is all in kind of like a black except for my key words are in a blue that stands out, right. Greg Marshall  13:28  And so that's, that's really all you're trying to do is hit the key, what key words? Does the client need to see or hear in order for them to self identify, right? And if you can do that, then you have a stronger offer. So simplifying, what you're putting on your landing pages to give those kinds of, you know, promises, and end results and timeframes. They're game changes, because what you do not want to do is make it complex where someone has to do what Blake did before this recording when I told him a statement, and the fact that he even had to wait. That's the even that's too long, right? Well, yeah. Well, you've already lost most customers, if they Blake Beus  14:14  have to say and put their you know, because they're thinking that like you've already lost lost. You've lost them. No, it was the other thing I would talk about is I want to talk about some like hard numbers, I've seen a good headline change and increase the conversion rate 20 Sometimes 30% Right. If you think about that, that means by changing a headline your ad spend is 130% more more efficient, right? Like like it's it's more efficient. You're getting leads for less money because they're converting better on your page. Even though you haven't even touched your ads or changed your targeting or done anything with your budget. You just change the headline. Yep. And it makes it makes your your cost per lead. You'd go down, it makes your profitability, your row as go up, it makes it make can make everything easier. And so it's, it's a good place to start to spend an hour to try and figure that out. Greg Marshall  15:12  Well, I think to something, especially early on, I used to believe the mistake I used to make was I used to believe the headline and the hooks and the ad copy was overrated, in a sense, like, can you really see a difference? Like I don't know about you, but early on that that was always something like really just like changing a one sentence thing could bump it up 20 30%. But then once I saw it in action, and notice, like, wow, this, this does make a huge difference, then I started to take it a lot more seriously. And that's where I want to encourage you guys to really think through what you're going to say, once you get in front of that perfect person. People spend so much time in researching the perfect person to get in front of right the target and we obsess about all that. But then it's like, but what do you actually, you haven't put any investment into? What are you going to say to him? Right? When you like if you're looking for Mr. Perfect or Mrs. Perfect, your future husband or wife, and you have this all dialed in. And then that person stands right in front of you. And then you're like, Oh, I haven't even thought like, what do I ask him? Do I even say hello to him? Right? Do go on a date. Like, if you don't think of any of those, you'll miss even if you have the perfect person in front of you. It's not gonna Blake Beus  16:34  work. Right? I would say it's more important to have a headline that works for someone who's not exactly perfect. Yep. than it is to find the perfect person and market to those people without putting a whole lot of effort in the headline. And the reason why is the not quite perfect person audience is much, much, much bigger, and they can still benefit from your product offering or service. But maybe, you know, maybe the perfect client or customer could see maybe a 200% increase in whatever results looking at, but the not quite so perfect person only gets 170% increase in whatever results you're helping with or whatever. That's still a win for them. Yep. Right. And that audience is much, much, much bigger. So if you can figure if you can put time into making that offer, simple to understand and easy to take action on, it's going to actually have a much bigger impact on on your bottom line than trying to identify the perfect person. Yep. And going through that exercise. Now, have you have you seen people go through this brings up an interesting point. We've seen people go try to tell people to go through this, you know, ideal customer avatars or worksheet where they try to figure out all of these things. What are your thoughts on this? I have I have my own thoughts. But what are your thoughts? Yeah, I have exercise as a practice. Greg Marshall  17:51  I think as a practice, it's good to clarify who you're trying to talk to. But it can also limit you to how how your marketing, right? Because it's almost causes the paralysis by analysis. Yeah, where you can be like, yes, well, I'm talking to Joe, who's 39 years old. You know, $82,000 a year and it goes golfing on Saturday. It's like, Blake Beus  18:16  I mean, we could get probably a little bit too in depth on that. I think the better way to approach that would be a customer avatar mindset. What is the mindset of the person that you're trying to go after, for example, I like to use hip hop, right? So if you think about hip hop, and targeting people that are interested in that hip hop, traditionally, people may think of African American, right, but that's not the whole market, right? Biggest buyers of hip hop music are actually Caucasian. Oh, really? And most of you will know that. And so when you think about it's like, well, then if you only spoke to African Americans, you're literally missing out on the largest port. Right? And so if that was your customer, yeah, if that was your customer Avatar was was that, you know, you're you're talking about maybe city location, ethnicity, things like that. And that's your avatar, you're writing ads directly to that one person instead of considering what are what did you call not the behavior, the mindset? Yeah, the customer avatar mindset. A customer avatar mindset is much more important than maybe their demographics are. Yep. And I think it's, it's, you can get caught up and what you'll actually shortchange though, so you could make an ad that's perfect for, you know, for Joe fits that match that you want. The problem is that market may only be so big, right? So you might there might only be a couple 1000. Joe's out there in totality. So unless you want your market to be capped at that, or maybe your price of your product is really high, which that's okay if you have a really high priced product, and you're really just saying like I want 1015 Like super high paying customers. The customer avatar thing could be a Good idea. But if you're someone that's, you know, really trying to make hundreds of 1000s and millions of dollars, your price point is, you know, 5060 cents. You have to expand that massively. Yeah. And so that's my thought on that, what's your main thought, honestly, I'm a lot in the same line like I, I have gone down the road of creating the avatar, even putting like a picture of that I found on like a stock photography website. So I could visualize the person and write copy to this to this person and gone through the whole exercise of writing to a specific person, which I don't think any of that is bad. But it can cause you to overanalyze and overthink all the things and think too narrowly. But I never could put my finger on what a better methodology would be literally until you just said, it's more important to do to understand an avatar mindset and do a mindset, you know, exercise of saying, okay, my ideal customer, maybe I don't know, their name, maybe I don't know, their demographics, age, income, whatever. But I do know that, here's what they're struggling with. And here's how much relief they would feel if that thing was was solved for them. And here's what they would be doing with their time or money if they don't have to waste it on this thing that they're struggling with. That the mindset of the Avatar not only gives you broader, larger audiences, but it also helps you maybe avoid some of your unintentional exclusions, exclusions, yeah, you're unintentionally excluding people, that would be a great fit for you, because you've got all of these demographics that, at the end of the day, don't really matter quite so much the hard demographics that are easy to think of like, gender, age, income level, ethnicity, location, those things aren't as important as they used to be. 2030 years ago, from an advertising and marketing standpoint, you used to have clothes that were specifically for one gender or the other. And now those lines are blurring. So if you make a clothing line that is specific to just one thing or another, you might be losing out on some customers that would love your product. Yep. Greg Marshall  22:19  And I think to mindset, also helps you write better copy landing pages offers, because when you think of someone's mindset, you think of like, for example, you can go someone you know, like, in my business, a business, that's just starting out their mindsets a lot different than when scaling, someone going from 100,000 to a million a month is going their mindset is totally different. They're not trying to survive, right? Their mindset is, we're trying to maybe grow so large that we can get bought out and have an exit, right? That mindset, if you make an ad that says Do you need help with your marketing advertising, to be able to become a little bit more profitable, that may not hit with someone trying to sell their company and go from 100,000 to a million, but that will actually hit on someone that's in the beginning stages? Yeah, just starting out, right. And so you really have to think about the mindset of the customer, because you will attract whatever that mindset is. And if you think about demographics, here's here's, here's the problem with, you know, Joe, who makes, you know, $400,000 a year and you're targeting, right, Joe, if if he's trying to scale one of his businesses up to a million a month yet 100,000, that mindset is different than the Joe it makes more $1,000 a year that's trying to get out of his current career and start a business, right. And you notice that's the same guy, right? Like, it's like demographic wise. So graphic one is the same guy. But his mindset is in two different places based on what his end goal is, Blake Beus  23:58  and your offer is going to be completely different to each of those people. That's a good thought. You're getting some of Greg Marshall  24:04  the thing about it. That's why mindset is so important. Because you could talk to the same person, same age, same income, same city, same everything, except they're in different mindsets. They might be starting a side hustle, or they might be scaling their business to a million a month. Those are two different mindsets, although the the age and income and all that to Blake Beus  24:25  say and what they want and what they fear or what they struggle with are completely different than Greg Marshall  24:29  exactly and So, Mark, it's a mindset, not just to you know, I always forget the terminology, not just like demo, demographic, psychographic, market more to mindset. It's a mindset. Blake Beus  24:40  I like that. I like that. That's gonna be the title of this episode. Yeah. I like that. So there's one other aspect I want to talk about before we, you know, wrap up here. Sometimes the actual delivered offer itself is too confusing. Greg Marshall  24:58  Right? I'm actually working on a client where Right now, yes, simplify that. Blake Beus  25:01  Right. So and so if you actually have an offer the deliverable if you know if it's a physical product, like what you're giving to them, or if it's a digital private is probably more common in coaching and digital products than others. If whatever you're giving them is too complicated, it's going to be very hard for you to write a simple, straightforward headline and copy on the page, because you've overthought the deliverable Yep. Like, what what do you recommend? You know, you said you've got a client right now, right? Greg Marshall  25:31  So this is very, very common in the fitness space. Okay. Because there's, you know, there's so many diets, so many heavy lift, like, keto II cars, there's, there's so many everything's right. And what ends up happening is, the business owner creates like this powerhouse of a package, which to the business owner, it makes sense. Because they would want that, right. The problem is, you forget, you're talking to people in different stages, maybe they're in the beginning stages, they don't understand all the ins and outs of your business like we do, right. And so what happens is, we all we give them too much, and then they feel like they can't do anything, right. So what we're currently working with this particular client that I'm talking about, is simplifying it. So saying, like, this program, you're getting a drop off of people, because they have the same consistent complaint, they're either getting injured, or it's too much. What that means that is, this program is actually built for a different segment of that fitness community. So either get rid of some of these aspects to lighten the load, and simplify, don't have exact calorie mouse just generalize advice, and a little bit more generalized workouts, or simplify, cut out the program that is not for the beginner and then change what you're saying in your marketing to match the more intermediate. Right. Right. Right. And that's, that's how we're doing so essentially, cut out things that are unnecessary based on the mindset, your Blake Beus  27:09  thought, yeah. And I think I think this happens more with businesses that are starting out or trying to hit a certain income level. And I say that because everyone kind of hits this panic threshold, where they start feeling impostor syndrome or whatever, where they're thinking, Okay, I've had some success, but I need to scale it, or I had a really great month, and then I had a terrible month. And I'm in panic mode. So I need to chase all of these different audiences. And then you make my audience bigger and bigger and bigger. So I need to have an advanced program and an intermediate program and a beginner program and a pre beginner program. And, and all of these are pretty free beginner program, and then a high ticket offer that's after all of this, because that's what I've seen Russell Brunson do, right? So a lot of those guys, a lot of those guys, but what what you've got to realize is when you're kind of modeling someone like Brunson are all of those. Like, that's how they're scaling from 100 million in business value to like 150 million in business value, and they have hundreds of employees, and all this stuff. That's not your scaling strategy. If you're just starting out, and you have a small, smaller business, and you're not even spending up to $1,000 a day on ads, that's the strategy that you don't need. Because the reality is, is even if I'm only targeting same only targeting people in America, America has what 330 million people in it. So that means at any given point in time on Facebook or on Google, there's probably 100,000 100 million people on those platforms right now. Yeah. And so when you're running your ads, the reality is, is you if you sell a product for $100, if you want to have $100,000 month, you only need to sell 1000 of those 2000 people, right? Yep, like that. And $100,000 month to business at this stage is huge. Yep, that is a huge thing for them. And you only need 1000. So so that you don't need to chase all of these different demographics, you really need to lean into whichever one is easiest for you to sell and deliver on and then scale into that. And then when you hit the point where you're skint, you've scaled into that, and you're super profitable, and everything's working great there, you can then start building out business systems or processes or teams to lean into these other areas. But but keep it simple. You're gonna drive yourself nuts. Well, and I've done that too. Greg Marshall  29:34  Well, yeah, I think we all have and because we've all started at zero. Yeah, right. So we've all done that. And I think the what I found and I'm happy brought this up because I've never like actually articulated okay, but you should focus if you're not spending over $1,000 A day in ADS. You should focus on mastering one to two offers. That's it. Do not get confused with doing a billion different things, one to two offers. And that is it. And I'll tell you why I had a client that they sold, I was like two years ago, they literally sold one t shirt. And so 500 Some $1,000 a year, right one. And it was, we just sold as many of those teasers the only possible, and the delivery became very easy, because it's literally one t shirt, and you know exactly how many shirts you need to get exactly what print you need to have, and how much it's gonna cost to get out the door. And we also do our acquisition. Once you master that, then you move into a second and a third or, and the great thing about that we only we were spending, I want to say with him $400 A day or something of that. And we grew it to that. And we just probably still could have went even further. So it's kind of like, you want to think about mastering one offer maximum two in the early stages and do not get caught up in too many channels and too many delivery platforms and too many tools. And tumor, it's very easy to do too many, right? Just focus on one and master. You'll be shocked how far you can take a single offer, it knows a lot further thing. Blake Beus  31:12  Oh, yeah, abs Absolutely. And here's the thing. The other thing that I've seen people do, and I don't think is bad strategies, maybe something to think about, I see this a little bit more in professional services or whatever. But publicly marketing wise, you have one offer. Yeah. And then when you get those customers in the door, you can talk to them about the other offers. But up front, you just have the one offer that gets people in the door that's very easy to market to it's profitable with your ads, or it gives you cheap leads, or whatever. And then behind the scenes, when you actually talk with someone, you can say, Okay, you actually would really benefit from these things. But it gives you the time to have that more complicated conversation. And that's why I say it works a little bit better with professional services, think about, think about a lawyer, right? Like there's so many things a lawyer getting clients has to explain to the clients. And if he tries to explain he or she tries to explain all of that in their advertising materials and on their landing page is not going to work, it's totally not going to work. And so what you need to do is you need to have a very simple offer up front, get them in the door, and then have that more in depth conversation that you frankly need to have in order to to have them fully benefit from your services. You just can't do that publicly, because it's too much. It's too confusing. It's like drinking from a fire. Yes, Greg Marshall  32:29  don't make the mistake that I've run into what I found a common error. And the very beginning of some of the business I've worked with, they're starting literally from zero is having too many things. Like too many offers too many products, too many, and constantly focus on building new products over and over and over again, versus trying to master just a few. Because what that does is I believe by focusing on too many things, you create your own overwhelm, right, like, and when you become overwhelmed, and you don't and you have limited resources. Like if you're starting a business, you really probably started with like less than 500. All right. I mean, nowadays, like back in the day, you had spent a lot more but nowadays, you get a side hustle going, but most people's budgets are like, in the very beginning, they got 500 bucks, they got $300. Now, that's that's it, right? So you need to be focused, one or two things, not 500 things because the the people that you're following are seeing which inspiration sometimes can can actually be negative. And the beginning stages, because if you look at some things where you see a company A they just did 10 million, I just did five minutes, it's 100 million, it's easy to try to mimic what they're doing. Even though you're, you're at a way different stage, right? And what that does is it'll it'll make you feel bad about yourself. Because you'll be like, well, how come they've got 48 products, and they've exited that 100 million. And I can't even figure out how to get one. Because I'm trying to do all these things, right? You're trying Blake Beus  34:11  to do too many things that you've added. And if you think about it, especially when you're tight, maybe a solo business or a small team, every product you offer comes with a customer support overhead comes with customer question overhead comes with just like emotional and mental overhead. Whereas if you have just the one, you know, it's very simple. And you might be thinking to yourself, Okay, but what if it's the wrong product, and I can't sell it? That's like, there's so many people out there, the product probably is not the problem. Yeah. But it's easy to think that usually the marketing message or getting in front of the right people is the problem correct? It's oftentimes not the product. Plus, you can hone and tweak your product over time as you go based on feedback from actual customers and make it a little bit better. I do that with my digital products. Greg Marshall  34:57  Yep. And I think too, you know, we Use Russell Brunson as an example because he is a successful guy. And a lot of what he's doing is the way to grow really large businesses. I think one thing though, to keep in mind is think about how all these guys have become successful not just internet marketing, guys, but this is overall right. You got Russell Brunson. Clickfunnels. He, I mean, he was pushing that super hard for I want to say two years where it was like, every single time I looked up, I saw he had challenges, but it was all said about one problem, you will get Coca Cola is Coca Cola soda, right? They didn't have Diet Coke back then. And Coke Zero and all these other branches of it. When they first began, they just saw how many Coca Cola was, can we sell the same product over and over again, and just look at a lot, you know, the Apple iPhone, right? That's basically what drives the sales of everything else, iTunes and the computers and all that they have one product where they really focused hard on and sold as many of them as possible. So find a product that you have that the market wants, that's a good product that you know how to sell. And only focus on selling as much of that as possible and become an absolute Be your own guru on your own product, you know, inside and out how to find the customer how to communicate what they get, and master it before you add more and more and more. That's that's crazy what I would recommend. Absolutely. Blake Beus  36:32  All right, let's wrap this up. Greg. How can people chat with you? Greg Greg Marshall  36:35 You can book a free strategy call. What about Blake Beus  36:39  Blake and check out the SM three group in there. Greg Marshall  36:43  All right. Okay. I'll see you guys later. Bye.  

Wednesday May 18, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript   Blake Beus  0:00  Okay, and then we'll just make sure we look up there. I did pretty good at looking up there during the I only good. Yeah. All right. Greg Marshall  0:08  Well, we are live Blake Beus  0:10  live ish. You're gonna see a recorded recording. But you you have some questions for ya. So cousin was like, let's do it. Let's do this. Greg Marshall  0:20  We've had this conversation before off recording I think it'd be valuable now to do a recording but also to kind of go through strategy live since Yeah, yeah. So So yeah, so one of the things that I have seen the I want to challenge this is, so there's different bidding strategies, right? Yeah, cost per click CPA Max conversion all in each one of these ad platforms. And that's assuming that the algorithm is going to match up the result that you want. Right, right. Here's my question. So I ran a test the other day, and you know, me, I'm always testing, essentially my job as marketers. Yes. Yeah. 24/7. I ran a test the other day. And I bid for video views, but this is on Facebook, okay. And I measured it against a traffic campaign, where one objective you say, I'm looking for video views. Okay. The other one, you say I'm looking for traffic Blake Beus  1:25  traffic. And to clarify traffic is pageviews. Right? Like someone clicks on a link? The page loads? That's the event that we're optimizing for? Correct? Greg Marshall  1:34  And what I actually found was the video views campaign. were slightly better. Oh, really? Then the traffic, okay. And the here's the kicker, same ad copy, same audiences. So interesting as it was, so nothing changed the other Blake Beus  1:51  variables with the same worked better in what way? Like what was your end goal, Greg Marshall  1:55  the end goal was to see like the test was, which one would be better to run video views or traffic, vert to get to the page, right? One of them you're looking for a higher watching rate. Right? Because if technically, if you bid for video views, you're getting higher washers versus traffic. I, in my base off this test, I saw deeper washy rates and better click through rates to the website versus the traffic. Blake Beus  2:28  And so when you say better your your definition of better is more more people going to the landing page. You're not like adding to cart purchasing. Correct? Correct. Because this is a blog post. And then it also says two blog posts. Yeah. So you set so your objective was to get people to hit that blog post? Yes. But then you told Facebook, on one campaign, I want the objective of video views. But that video has a link in it to go to the blog page. And then the second campaign was you told Facebook, I want people to go to the blog page. Right. So and then you measured which one actually got more people to the blog page. Correct. And the video views got more people to the blog page. Greg Marshall  3:10  Yes. And so I don't know if that was just and I believe both ads were a video ad. This literally the same little Okay, identical, like no difference and no change in work, because there were existing posts. Okay, she's existing posts, okay. And so it made me think because then I did a dive into, well, what if you go to YouTube, YouTube ads, that's you can do video, essentially, video views or web, right? Traffic leads wherever. And I looked at a couple of clients that are running, and we were starting with video views. And their cost per clicks. Were basically the same as if you were bidding for like web traffic. Oh, really, or CPA, but the CPMs cost per 1000 impressions. Were lower on the video view of video in YouTube and YouTube. Okay. This is where I was really trying to think, Okay, the next test I'm running currently to see if there really is any difference is targeting the same audience, changing the bidding strategies and see where the ads show up. Okay? And the reason why I'm testing where the ads show up is my what is it? The hypothesis, okay, is if your if your targeting is what you want it to be, and you change bidding styles. Is it really different to bid on one versus the other algorithm wise? Okay, that's the question, okay. Meaning, if I'm going after the same audience, I keep getting the same cost per clicks or maybe not cheaper. Okay, on video view versus web tracking or CPA. Then what is the difference of between one versus the other. Okay, and why would you read The why would it matter? Yeah. If you're bidding one versus the other? Yeah. Blake Beus  5:03  Okay. That's the hypothesis. Okay, here we go. So I, I have some thoughts. So a lot of people talk about algorithms, and we talk about algorithms a lot on here as well. And many of the people that talk about algorithms, I have never written an algorithm before. Which is fine. Like, that's totally fine. But if you've, if you've written some code and sat down and thought, Okay, I need to write, I need to bang out some code that's going to take a few things into account, and then provide a result. How do I do that? You've had to approach the problem a little bit different. And you have, you have to have a better understanding of how algorithms can work. Now, I've never written an algorithm algorithm as complicated. As well, Facebook and Google ad platforms have I mean, they're literally taking 1000s, maybe even 10s of 1000s of data points, and running it through their machine learning. To to to pop out, okay, here's the people that need to see this at whatever, right. But I have written algorithms before, for some, some basic use cases, which I feel like gives me some unique perspective on how algorithms work. Because a lot of people, they're just like, well, I'm testing this and this and this. And then they say, this is how the algorithm works. And they're like, Well, maybe, yeah, maybe. But we've got to think about the decisions that the coders were making and how, how they can detect data, right? So the very first thing and we say this over and over and over again, is you've got to make it easy for the algorithm to to make a decision. Yep. Okay. Because, again, there's there's 10s of 1000s of data points, is one of the reasons why if you have so you have a purchase conversion and fires at the end of a big long funnel, right? You're you're doing the Russell Brunson Click Funnels thing where, where they buy this thing, then there's a bump sale, and then there's an upsell offer, and another upsell offer. And then like, if they turn down this one, there's like a, another offer that's maybe a discount of one of the first offer has and, and all of this thing, and then they go through six or seven steps, and then they purchase. And that's where the event fires. That's very difficult for any algorithm to determine what the hell happened here. Yeah, like like, because it's so far removed from the ad, click, or from a measurable ad event, that there's so many places for the ball to get dropped. Right. Blake Beus  7:39  And so one of the things, I think the very clearly the easiest thing right now to say is, it's so much easier for Facebook, Google, whatever platform to measure events that happen inside their system, as opposed to something that happens off their site. So like a page load that happens off YouTube, you go to a different platform, even if you're on your phone, and you're inside the YouTube app, you're going to a separate webpage. But if you're measuring a result that happens inside their platform, it you they have access full access to that data, even with iOS 14. Yeah, right? Like, iOS 14 is not going to block Facebook's ability to know how much of a video you watched inside of Facebook's app. Because when you install the app, you give that app permission to track these things. And iOS 14 can block them doesn't block that right. And so whenever you have like a video view objective, it's so much easier for the algorithm to determine objective has been met. Yeah. Which is why in my opinion, you're gonna see always see lower CPMs got it. Now, we've talked about this before. And if you're thinking about this, you the listener CPMs, are essentially how you're charged. Yeah, that that is is an A very important metric. And the the lower the CPM, it's a stands for cost per 1000 views or impressions, right? The lower that CPM mean means you get more people to look at your ads for a lower cost. Yep. Therefore, you have more of an opportunity for clicks, more of an opportunity to determine in you know, that that person's intention, all of those things. So I think the difference in CPMs is probably why you're getting cheaper cost per clicks, and why you're getting more pageviews because more people are actually seeing that. And I think that's probably most relevant inside Facebook because they were really destroyed with iOS. And now iOS 15. Google was like, and we've been through this before we got this not a problem, but Facebook was absolutely right. They'll completely blindsided right So I think that's probably why you're seeing the best results, and probably why you'll very likely continue to see better results. Greg Marshall  10:07  Well, in that, here's, here's my question then. And maybe I have always looked at it incorrectly, okay? Do you get a less lesser quality audience bidding on different strategies? So, for example, let's say I'm going after the same audience. Do you believe that the algorithms would show like by, say, video views versus purchase? Does that just completely show it to a different audience, almost like my mind in the past would think, well, if I do video views, it's essentially never going to show it to a buyer. Right? And if it is only going to show people who bought Yeah, Blake Beus  10:51  so this is how this is how I look at when you set up targeting in any any ad platform, it will give you an estimated audience size, right? Yeah. So let's say you you set up targeting, targeting several different interests. And Facebook says you have an audience size of a million people based on your parameters, right. And then you run two ads to the exact same thing with different objectives. One is a purchase objective, and one is saying, video views objective? Yeah, your budget is probably most people's budget probably isn't big enough to blow through a million people have that audience in 24 hours. Now. It's just like, that's not gonna happen. So So part of what the algorithm does is decides, Okay, we've identified this audience based on the parameters you've set, but which people in that audience do we actually show it to? They don't just randomly pick people they're trying to optimize, like, they really do want to get you good results, because they want you to keep spending money with them. Right. And so I would guess that it's quite possible that they will show purchase objective campaigns to a different subset of that audience than a video view objective. And the reason is, is because one of the data points in there is is that they're using as an algorithm is, how likely is this person to to make a purchase? How likely is this person to watch a video, and we all have slightly different behaviors on Facebook, and some people are more likely to watch 1015 20 seconds, five minutes of a video, and some people are more likely to click on a button and add something to the cart and make a purchase. And so Facebook's going to say well, this person feels like they're ready to make a purchase. So let's put it in front of them. And, and they're also like, well, this person is the kind of person that tends to like to watch videos, so let's put it in front of them. But I think where I think there's a disconnect there. Yeah. Because I think it's much harder for an algorithm to say this person seems like they're likely to make a purchase. Yeah, I don't think that's an easy call for an algorithm. Greg Marshall  13:01  Here's my argument. Yeah. Okay. Are my agreeance on what you're saying, but an argument to the general marketing population? Wouldn't you say that if there's less data, because of the privacy issues being fed back in? What did that mean that the algorithm has lost a significant amount of those n data points? Yeah. Blake Beus  13:24  Right. Absolutely. Especially on Facebook. Greg Marshall  13:27  So with that being said, Wouldn't it be you have you should change your thought process with the changes that have happened? Yeah, absolutely. So that's kind of my thing is I'm curious to actually, that just kind of sparked my curiosity, because I was like, Well, if you notice, like, if the algorithm or the datasets or whatever, are just not as intelligent and what is it 80% has been taken away? Don't they say? Like automatically 80% of that out? Yeah, maybe even more? Yeah, Blake Beus  13:59  because iOS by default is opting out of ad tracking. So so it like, what is it? It's like, on my website, it's almost 90% of all traffic is mobile traffic these days? And the difference between iPhone and Android? It's probably 60%. iPhone 40%. Android, depending on industry, some industries are, are more, right, like Realtors way higher up on iPhone than Android. But developers may be higher on Android. But so it kind of kind of depends. Yep. But yeah, because by default, iOS 14 opted everyone out of ad tracking. Greg Marshall  14:38  So what does that make sense that if they've lost 80, because I'm making the assumption that we were all optimizing for these events in the past, because of how powerful the data was, right? Yeah. But if you strip all that data away, would you be shortchanging yourself by optimizing for something that It only has 20 or 10%. Of Yeah, versus maybe something a little higher. Blake Beus  15:04  Yeah, I, I would I definitely agree with that. But here's, here's the thing. Like, if you have a campaign with a purchase objective, and it's working, and it's profitable, don't turn that off based on what we're seeing here like that can work for you. A lot of this has to depend on aggregated data that you've that you've obtained inside your ad account. That historical data can it is used to make decisions, per ad account or whatever. But if if purchase events don't seem to be working Yep, then you need to start reimagining how you're doing and start optimizing for events inside the Facebook app. Got it. And then, and then find some sort of a way to follow up with some sort of direct offer or whatever, right? So you might have to think of things in two stages. And this isn't a new concept like this concepts have been around for a long time. But it's probably more relevant now than it has been is because a lot of those purchase events aren't getting reported back into into Facebook. Greg Marshall  16:10  So here's, here's a question. So like, I've seen with a lot of my clients that have, I guess, you know, seasoned pixels, or you know, they've got a lot of data, the end goal of purchase or lead works perfectly. Yeah. And that's because they have 1000s and 1000s of those events that have happened previously. And even happened now. My question would be, what if someone has a brand new ad account? Yeah, I have heard opposing positions on this over and over again. And I'm curious on what your thought is, because my thought is, logically, if I have no data, and AD account, I should be starting at the highest level, and then work your way down. Yeah. But then you do I hear at least I don't know about you. But I hear from people that just say, always optimize for the bottom of the funnel, even on a brand new account. Yeah. And I don't know if I always agree with that. And I've heard this from like, legitimate people that I would consider good marketers. Yeah, I'm not saying they're completely wrong. Yeah. But it's an it's an idea that I don't know if I 100% am on board right with that. Blake Beus  17:27  So here's what I would say. I would say there's a lot of seasoned marketers out there media buyers that are talented and really good at what they do. But they can still not have a great understanding of kind of inner workings. The reality is, is Facebook and Google, they don't publish. They don't publish the details about how everything specifically works. They will publish some best practices and give you some concepts, that data and information tends to always be skewed towards making them money. So keep that in mind. So sometimes their best practices. Their best, right? are best practices for them. And sidenote, how many times have you talked with like a Facebook? Like, they'll reach out to you if you spend enough money, they'll reach out, Hey, have a free consultation call. I do it every time. And every time I've had a call with them. I'm like, I'm pretty sure the information you're giving me is lining Facebook's pockets and not mine. Greg Marshall  18:20  Well, I don't Okay. To go. I don't know how many times I actually instruct my clients. If you get reached out by a REP. RON. I remember thinking of this one client, where she was her Azur apps. I mean, I'm talking absolutely crushing. Yeah, cold trial. Spending. I want to say she was around $400 a day. Okay, three or 400. So not huge amounts. But also that's, that's a significant amount for a lot of businesses. Yeah. And so she was spending that and of course, Facebook calls, right? They reach out to her, they get on the phone call, and they tell her to change all of her bidding. And so she changed that. And the the conversions just like stopped, because of how she changed, you know, they made they're optimized for different things. And that was a big eye opener for me. This happened a few years ago, where I was like, This is not good. Because several times when I talk to him, some of the advice that they give you doesn't feel like they know they're talking it feels like they're just randomly telling you anything. I whatever the sales sales manager told him to say when you call Blake Beus  19:35  everyone well, I think I think the reality is, is if you're not spinning serious money with Facebook, and when I say serious money, I'm talking like $10,000 A DAY PLUS, you're not getting someone who's on the phone with Facebook, you're not getting someone who's actually run serious as you're getting someone that's been through a six weeks training and they're regurgitating what they've heard and That's fine. Yeah, but in a test Yeah. And it's okay. Usually I take those calls, because I want to pick their brain about something and see what they say. And I just have this morbid curiosity, like every time, but we kind of got off topic that what were we talking about? So optimizing? Well use you said you have you've seen serious advertisers say you always optimize for the end result. Yeah. So their line of thinking is essentially, it's like, you always want to tell Facebook or Google exactly what you want. And that makes sense at a high level saying, I actually want purchases, like, I really do want that. So I want you to use your algorithm magic to find purchases. And I don't think that's entirely wrong. But if it's not working, it's not working. Yeah. The when, when the rubber meets the road, and you launch that campaign, and you're spending $100 a day and you're getting $20 in sales, that's not working. You can't keep up with that. And a lot of them, and I've talked not, not a lot of them. I've heard some say, Well, you just got to spend more spent, you got to lean in and that spending and I've tried that. And and sometimes that works, but not always. And then you're and then you you lose several $1,000. And you're thinking okay, this, this is not working. So it's all about testing what's going to work for you, your ad creative, your audience, all of these things are completely unique. Yep. Even if you have a brand new account, your picture that you're using is probably unique. The ad copy you're using is unique. The landing page or on your cart software that you're using. All of those things are unique, and means that your situation is unique. And so if you want to try testing something bottom of the funnel right here on a brand new account, go for it. And if it works run with that. But if it doesn't work, you need to turn that off. Don't spend more money. And then and then work on kind of building engagement audiences and then retargeting retargeting those engagement audiences? Well, Greg Marshall  22:03  here's, and this is where the stats from? So you hear well, ad accounts are unique to your business. And I believe that because it does learn who your customers are. So what did you say if if I'm going into a new ad account, and it has nothing? And I tell it to get me a customer, but it literally has never had a purchase? Right, then? Are we shooting blind? Because the the flip side of that was I hear? They say Yeah, well, the algorithms have so much data on everyone else's ad account that they know how to put in front of someone. Yeah. But my question is, but do they really like so let's say I sell an $800 washer and dryer? How many $800 washer and dryer purchase Do you think Facebook is really getting throughout the world on ads can't be can't be that many, Blake Beus  23:06  that's a pretty unique offer. And so I would say I would say that, if your offer is in line with a lot of other people doing the same thing. So let's pick on Realtors for a second. Like a lot of there's a lot of realtors out there. A lot of them use Facebook ads to get leads, it's a very short funnel, right? Like you can say, here's this house, check it out, give me a call, you know, enter email in so you could even use the on the on, you know, in paid Facebook lead little tool or whatever. And that works for realtors, partly because whenever they make a sale, their Commission's are so big compared to their ad spend that it totally works. And if you have an offer like that, that's very similar to lots of other things out there. But unique because it's you and you're in this geographical area, I can see putting a purchase or putting that lead at that event. That objective. At the end of the funnel, I can see that totally working on a brand new account right off the bat and because of historical data from from everybody, like that's a very easy thing for the algorithm to say to figure out like, it's easy for them to for me, it's easy for the algorithm to see that I've been looking at every house, someone posts on Facebook, and I'm definitely in the market for a house like that is an easy thing for them to determine. And it's an easy funnel, and it's an easy event for them to track. And there's lots of people doing that kind of strategy that could totally work. But if you're selling something unique, like a course that covers something or a membership, like the SM3 membership that we do. Those are those are definitely more unique things and there's not there's probably no historical data on other ad accounts relevant to that. So when I think Greg Marshall  24:54  and here's here's a thought that I'm curious about, which is cool. Did you almost customize your ad account? Meaning? What if? Okay, let me go backwards. When you talk about ad accounts, right? Does an ad account, even if they don't get to your website, learn from video views and engagement? And all of that? Does that store somewhere? Yeah, Blake Beus  25:23  yeah. Yeah. So Facebook, I know for a fact that I've actually read this, they can track if you just stop scrolling and look at a post, even if it's not a video or whatever, they don't give marketers access to that data, they do give marketers access to video view data, like, you know, 10 seconds or 25% figures that they give they give access to that they don't give access to the data have always stopped and read this post, right, they do give access to the data, have someone hit the like button, or they made a comment or engaged in some way, shape, or form, or on Instagram, if they viewed my my profile page, they give us access to that data. Oftentimes, it's high level access, but that they let us target those people. But they know if I stop scrolling and read something they know, if I opened the comment section and read some comments. They know if I know those people, and they use all of those data points to put something together. So they do learn a lot on your ad account. Even if some people aren't clicking on the ads and going to some Greg Marshall  26:26  and they and they do they store this information for their own learning? Like, see, what I'm saying is do they tie the info? Kind of like if you had 1000 purchases last month? You know, it's like kind of in the ad account? Does that ad account also store that information? Or does it only store the events? Like you tell it to based off of view content Add to Cart purchase? Yeah, so Blake Beus  26:50  they don't publish this? But I I'm very confident saying that? Yes, they do store Okay, all of that stuff. I mean, if you think about it, Facebook's specifically Google to their they are data brokers, like their data collectors, data warehouse platforms. And they definitely store that they may Greg Marshall  27:17  aggregate that data a little bit. So they're not still storing every single little data point. But they may kind of aggregate that into some collective internal data they can use for decisions, but they do they do store it. Again, they don't publish this. Yeah. But I would be very surprised if they didn't store that and relate that to your ad account. Got it. Okay, because because in my head, I'm structuring a strategy of like, so you could take an ad account, and almost customize that ad account early on, like a brand new one, you could train it up, like an employee, and show it and start with here some, you know, engagement, video views, clicks, blah, blah, blah, then landing page, and then view content all the way to the purchase? And if you're patient enough, would it? In my opinion, wouldn't that be the most cost effective and more customized approach than because here's what I've seen before with new ad accounts. I'm thinking of this one particular ad account, I remember when I first launched, we were going after purchases, and I was almost getting no clicks on the ad saying, Okay, same ad. So remember, anytime I testing, it's with the same exact thing, same audience, you will always get no clicks, no engagements, no anything. I took the same ad post, Id moved it into a view content, suddenly started getting a lot more clicks, engagements, and people even moved down closer to purchase, versus starting out the purchase. That was like one of the first times I was like, that's interesting. It's the same audience same ad, nothing's changed. But when I told it to get a purchase, nothing happened. Blake Beus  29:04  And I'm, I'm gonna guess you didn't say this. But I'm guessing the CPMs were way lower on the view contents, way, way, way, way, way, way lower. And that's the other thing, right? Like, a lot of companies out there with very, with a lot of data in their ad account, are optimizing for purchase because it's working for them. And they've put that time in. But those are more expensive eyeballs. Yeah, because it's harder for Facebook to determine who clearly fits in that group number one, and number two, there are more valuable set of eyeballs. Yes. Right. And so you're going to be bidding against people with bigger budgets when you optimize for purchase, which again, if you're optimizing for purchase, and you're getting a 2x or 3x Return On cold traffic, like keep doing that, yep. But if you're optimizing for purchase and you're not Yeah, then we got to read. We got to rethink that. The eyeballs for view content or whatever, those are going to be cheaper eyeballs to get to take action. And some people interpret that as a lower intent audience, which you'll hear, you'll hear a lot of advertisers talk about their lower intent intent audiences. But the reality is, is oftentimes, they're lower intent, simply because Facebook can't determine what their attempt intent is. They haven't done the things to give Facebook a clearer idea of what their intent is. And with the right message, the right the right hook, all these things we've talked about, we're still talking to people, even though we're using algorithm with the right hook and the right message and everything you can make that make that work and determine that intent for yourself. Through actual version. Greg Marshall  30:55  Remember, over the summer, I share with you how I had a client that I think it was over last summer where I said, Yeah, we're actually optimizing. Well, we had multiple objectives that we're going after, right? But I had shared with you that one of the campaign's was the objective was view content. And it was actually getting purchases for the same cost as my purchase, right? Which that threw another like, like, that's interesting, because the view content, which is considered and the CPMs are way lower, is always, not always but mentioned many times from other marketers saying, Yeah, you don't ever really want to optimize for that, because they're not. They're lower quality eyeballs, right? That's essentially what they're implying. But the data in this account was showing otherwise. And so I was like, I don't know, in my mind, I've always interpreted Well, if an account was maybe early on, or whatever, it's better to go after that anyways. Because it's going to be cheaper. Because the other thing that you want, I think, for you, is you want to keep in mind, of what stage is the person giving you that advice? And definitely don't bring up that too. Yeah, because one thing that I have started to challenge a little bit is the people that give a lot of the advice, there are by no means purposely trying to misdirect you. There are only speaking from their current spent, right. Some of these companies are spending 1000 2000 3000 10,000 The horse a day, you're gonna do things a lot differently. It's kind of like, if the CEO of Coca Cola gave you advice on how to grow a business. It's almost like not applicable to you if you're started yesterday. Blake Beus  32:50  Right? Yeah. CEO of Coca Cola could come in and be like, Okay, we've got this. I don't know craft store yet where you can buy like rubber stamps and things. And we're going to take this multinational, yeah, they're probably not going to do a very good job at data like, and that's the same thing. So you get a lot of these, these gurus and many of them have good information, right, like, and good intent, like they're not trying to screw you over. But many, many of them are will say things like, you know, this is what I did, and spending over $2 million in ads, yes. But if you're only spending 10 hours a day, that your strategies are totally different data different. Let me ask you this, though, I want to circle back to what you're saying you had the purchase event over the summer, and the view content event, and they were getting you similar purchase results, cost per purchase cost per purchase results. Let me ask you, in your opinion, which of those campaigns would would be more valuable in long run? And your Yeah, Greg Marshall  33:50  and my opinion, it's just gonna go against everyone's opinion, I believe the view content on to me? Yeah, because it's gonna be a bigger audience. It's gonna be a bigger audience. I could feed it more data faster. Yep. It can optimize quicker. That's just my opinion, though. Blake Beus  34:07  No, I would agree with you on that. And that's why I brought that up. Because a lot of people say cool, well, these are both working. So we'll shut off the view content, cuz we're gonna go just the purchase, because that's what these guys are saying. And it's working. But I would say the view content is probably going to get you more consistent results, like you. And I've run into this with purchase conversions. Sometimes it's all over the place. Whereas if you're optimizing for something else, sometimes it's way, way, way more consistent. Because you're using bigger, your CPMs are lower, so you're in front of way more people. So statistically, it should smooth a lot of these things out. And you're creating retargeting audiences that are much larger, that you can then retarget and you and I both know this, oftentimes, your initial cold traffic audiences, you'll get maybe maybe a 1x return on your row and sometimes a little less, whatever. Sometimes to x like if you've got a cool offer whatever, but then your retargeting ads will get 567 10x return on your row as row as. And that's where that's where all the magic happens. So if you can create that retargeting audience for cheaper, yes, and you're getting sales, I think that audience is bigger. And then you just launched a retargeting Greg Marshall  35:18  campaign. Funny, funny follow up to that, that client forced me to turn off the view content. Like maybe back in September or whatever, okay, because they heard some other gurus say should only do purchases, right? And so we turned it off, and their sales tanked. Now we have to rebuild it back up. And the database is the data right there. We were getting that cost per purchase. It was working fine having the view content was in there. But once again, maybe a well in tenant guru pension for that to only optimized person get rid of the view content. They basically strong army to turn it off, even though I did. And then they saw an immediate drop and say, Blake Beus  36:04  oh, so let me ask you this. You have the you were used to running both our purchase and the view contest, you show off the view content. And you saw a drop in so did you see a decrease in performance on the purchases? So so it's almost like the purchase campaign was being propped up? Yes. By the view content campaign because Facebook was basically stealing data from the view content campaign to determine who had the proper purchase intent. Correct. So it was essentially an an unintentional maybe retargeting. Yep, campaign is what might have been added. We Greg Marshall  36:39  talked about this, where we run side by side campaigns with different objectives, and that they seem to give more signals and feed off each other. Yeah. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's a good thing. Because you're simultaneously growing those retargeting audiences while giving the machine enough data consistently, to actually optimize versus when you do the purchase. And you don't run into this as much as into lead generation, lead generations easier. It's a pretty easy conversion, when you're asking people to pay money right away, you know, you get a lot more fluctuations and your results with the cost versus where one day it will be $15 A purchase for three or four days. And then another day, it's 68. And then another day, it's 30 minutes Blake Beus  37:31  before and I've been there before. And that is frustrating, right? That's the stuff. That's the stuff that keeps you up at night. Yep. And that's the software. As soon as you wake up in the morning, you're checking your ad accounts, see where you're at that day. And that like that is that is frustrating Greg Marshall  37:47  goes up and down. And I think one of the one of the thoughts when I set up that side by side campaign was what would happen if I feed enough data constantly to stabilize the account? And that's one of my theories on why, while those were running side by side, we almost never had a jump. And I think it's because of what you're saying it's stealing from the other campaign. And it's able to maintain that level of performance, right. And every day Blake Beus  38:18  will end in traditional advertising wisdom, with with Facebook specifically was you don't want overlapping audiences. And every Facebook ad rep will tell you that and they'll say, Oh, you're Greg Marshall  38:32  you're stealing from currently running? Yeah. Overlap. Right now. It's working very well. Blake Beus  38:38  I personally do. Yeah, I think the only time that matters, is when you're using big budgets, right? Like, if you're spending maybe $1,000 a day, $2,000 a day. You you might run into where you need to stop overlapping audiences, especially if your audience isn't super big. But you can actually a lot of people don't know this, you can actually hop into Facebook, I can't remember where it's at. But you can see how much you're overlapping on those audiences and make that determination. The reality is on smaller, much smaller spends a few $100 a day or whatever. Your audience size is so big. Yeah, that that even if it's like a million, you know, million person audience, oftentimes we're targeting 2 million 3 million person audience. You're you're not you're not gonna overlap in a way that's going to make you a make it make an impact or waste your money, right. Greg Marshall  39:31  It's overly I think it's like, what is it like an over exaggeration, right of the overlap? Because I have found even with clients spending just two or $300 a day I don't think overlap becomes a problem until you even hit 1000. Right? Right. So that doesn't apply to most average Blake Beus  39:53  law. A lot of businesses will never never go past $1,000 a day because they simply just don't need to Like, you think about, I saw some ads for a roofing company, right? We've talked about roofing companies before, I had my roof redone a few years ago, because it was damaged in a hailstorm. And the bill was $25,000, or something like that, right? They don't need to spend $2,000 a day to get roofing clients, right? They can spend $200 a day and be profitable all day long, all day long, every day, at $200 a day and no need to spend more than that, because they can get more work than their crews can accomplish in any given amount of Greg Marshall  40:35  time. And you bring up a good point to strategy because what I do think when we make these podcasts, my intent, and we've actually never really had this conversation gold, nice. The intent is to help more of the early stage to mid stage advertise. Right, right. So I want to speak almost on those terminologies to help that person either start and get going, or if they're getting going where to go. I don't necessarily intend to try to reach the $10,000 day spent. Blake Beus  41:12  Right. You don't expect McDonald's to reach out to you and say, Hey, Greg, Greg, I was listening to your podcasts about we're spending $100,000 a day, how can we optimize that? Greg Marshall  41:22  Exactly. I'm not intending for for that particular audience. Because at that point, they're typically not the audience that needs help. Right? The person who needs help, is the person to starch events here, and how to grow that to be a profitable Blake Beus  41:39  business, right. And I wouldn't even say at that point. They kind of maybe don't even care about results, like exact, there's so big, and they're so big. And it's like that we have a marketing degree, have a marketing department and we have a marketing budget, let's spend it on ads. And we'll write we'll run some reports to show that we've done some stuff. But the reality is, they're making money regardless. And so they kind of they they don't need to know the nitty gritty details, because they're all getting their paycheck and going home at the end of the day anyway. Greg Marshall  42:09  Yeah, that's a great point. Because they have an ad budget. They just need to spend it. Yep. So they're not really worried about Blake Beus  42:14  now their job is to spend that much budget and make it look like they're doing something I've worked in corporate. That's really what that's really what most corporate jobs are, is to make it seem like to whoever it matters above you, that you're doing your job. Greg Marshall  42:25  Yep. So I think that's what our podcast is all about is helping that person that's from the start to mid level tier that, you know, I would, we could almost put a number two, as far as running paid traffic. We could almost say the person that wants to get up to 1000 hours a day. profitably, yeah, yeah, up to 1000 hours a day profitably making that work. Pass that I think that's a different audience. That, you know, they're obviously they know, these standards, they wouldn't get to that. Blake Beus  42:57  And that's something we could speak to pass to that Absolutely. A bit. Right. But you know, a lot of the principles, you if you're spending $1,000 A day profitably, you've already kind of worked out what's working for your ad account. Greg Marshall  43:09  So that's kind of the target person. Yeah, that we really want to serve? Blake Beus  43:14  Well, Greg, we got to wrap this up. This is one of our longer episodes, I'm just looking at the timer right here. And but I think this has been a really interesting one to go over. And it's something I feel like a lot of media buyers need to have a better understanding of, because it's very easy to just kind of throw stuff out there and see what sticks without having an understanding of sending the right signals to the ad platform, how to what the differences are and the nuances for a brand new account versus one that has conversions. We didn't talk about this a whole lot, but versus one that has like messy data. Yes. Right. They've run all these different offers that are not related at all. And now we've got some messy data, right? Yeah, definitely. Since we didn't really talk about that, I would kind of treat that like a new ad account. Yep. Is what I would do. And I would kind of start from the beginning and go from there. And then try to keep all the offers in line. And go from there. But yeah, so let's let's wrap this up. Greg. Greg Marshall  44:12  Well, if you want to reach out to me book a free strategy session, go to Greg And Blake, Blake Blake Beus  44:19  There's the SM three group in there on social media marketing, organic and paid. Hop in there. Check that out. Greg Marshall  44:27  Thanks for joining us. Talk to you later. Blake Beus  44:30  All right, bye. That was that was a good one.  

Friday May 13, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript Greg Marshall  0:00  I don't know, where do we where do we start? Where to? Well, you know, yesterday, we're sending our text messages talking about tracking, right, and the importance of tracking. And you know, how tracking causes a lot of issues? Yeah, with knowing what's working and what's not. And you actually discover something as you were implementing, and you're a seasoned veteran, which, which tells me if a seasoned veteran runs into this, the rest of us people, yeah, are definitely not doing this. So why don't you share a little bit about what you read? Blake Beus  0:31  Oh, absolutely. So I had this question for a long, long, long time as to what's the best way to actually track conversions. From like a technical standpoint, whenever you set up a new campaign, or a new conversion pixel pixel, specifically with Google, it says, Hey, here's three different ways you can set up this conversion, it could be an imported goal from Google Analytics, you can set it up with Google Tag Manager, or the third option is you can set it to your developer and they will add the code directly on the page with what's called a global site tag. But they don't tell you which one of those is best. Now, I've noticed over the years, that specifically the Google Analytics, importing of the goals, never gave me as many conversions as the other ways of doing it. And it always seemed like the conversions got dropped there. And you were saying you've noticed the same? I did, right? I've actually Greg Marshall  1:28  tried all three of those. Yes. And the one without a doubt, global site tag works. Yeah. And I just, luckily, or accidentally plugged this in a website correctly. And notice that there was there was more conversions recording. Yeah, then the other two options. And so I just thought, and to give you full disclosure, I also had the other two versions uploaded as well. So I can't compare. Okay, so those numbers are completely different. Yeah. So as I spoke with the client, they would look into the, into the ads manager, and they would notice, how come these they're all tracking the same thing purchases, but how come there's three or four numbers? Yeah. And my thought was, well, this is the Google, you know, pixel on the page. This is the uploaded analytics. And then this is the Google time. And the problem is, it seems like there's some level of drop off right? Where, yeah, and so that actually helped my case to show you can always trust Yeah, the attribution 100% Yes, I'd be 100%. Accurate? Well, Blake Beus  2:34  absolutely. And the thing is, is like every Google Ads tutorial out there, I've ever seen paid or free on YouTube, or even like provided and made by Google never talks about which one of these is most accurate, they oftentimes will talk about implementing whichever one is easiest for you, based on your setup, whatever. But there's clearly some accuracy differences. So I was diving into some of the Google documentation for something completely different. And I was reading one of their documentation pages on setting up conversion events going through and there's this small little section that says outright, the Google site, global, the Global Site tag with conversion event, is the most accurate way to track any of your events, whether that's a lead conversion, or say a sale or anything like that. And it's only on this one page kind of buried in the documentation, whatever. But it there it is, like, there's there's the evidence, that's the proof. And that's even more accurate than Google Tag Manager, which a lot of people will say, well, it's it's easier when Greg Marshall  3:49  it's Yeah, tracks as well. I have found just from experience, that the global site is the most Yeah, accurate. And the other thing that I've noticed is, I don't know the documentation that said this, but the Google, did you see anything about enhanced conversions? didn't show anything about that? Blake Beus  4:10  I have seen some stuff, but I didn't see it in relation to this. Specifically. Greg Marshall  4:14  It wasn't in a doc. I was curious. I wasn't looking for it. Yeah. And all the ad accounts are that I manage only some of them have that option, and others don't really. So I don't know if it's a new thing. Maybe not rolling out. Yeah. Blake Beus  4:26  Yeah, um, I'm not entirely sure that'll that'll be interesting. We'll have to dive into that. Yeah. But I do want to take a quick minute to just talk about maybe why. And this is one of the things we've talked about before, if we want to take a big step back about, you know, why is this and we've mentioned over and over and over again, the easier you make it for the algorithm to know what's going on, the easier it is for them to for the algorithm to deliver the right kind of the ads in front of the right kind of people and we've we've talked about that this is true with Facebook ads is true with any algorithm based Yep, adds platform, you want to make it easy. And I think that's exactly why the global site tag is the most accurate. Because from a tech perspective, it's very easy for the algorithm to consume that information, it loads on page load. It's one script tag plus fires one event, one conversion event that's either like a, you know, a lead or a purchase or whatever. If you use something like Google Analytics, your analytics has to grab that information, it gets processed as part of the goal algorithm, and then it gets sent over into Google ads. And that's a lot of steps or something could go just a tiny bit off, and then the conversion doesn't get counted. It's kind Unknown Speaker  5:40  of like playing the telephone game, exactly what it is yes, it gets diluted, the more time it has to go through another source. And then Blake Beus  5:49  you you even have with that particular setup, you even have this option where usually inside of analytics, you have multiple people in there building reports doing all these things. And if someone makes a change that breaks that goal funnel, now you have human error on your team side, causing no conversions to get reported into your Google ads, and no way to be notified that that's what happened. There's no like change management system inside of Google Analytics or anything. So there's so many places where the ball can get dropped, their information won't get communicated back. The second one was Google Tag Manager, how that works is it loads some scripts, and then Tag Manager injects other events or other scripts or things in there for you. This is set up for marketers to be able to basically change advertising events and conversion events without having to involve a developer team. So it does make sense. But then again, you're loading one library script, and then you're injecting some other library scripts. And you're hoping that all of that happens in the correct kind of timing, and then things get get converted and sent back. It's Greg Marshall  6:57  a recipe for failure, especially at this moment where a lot of tracking is being taken away. Yeah. Now you're adding an extra step for it to not be able to track as, Blake Beus  7:08  right and then one thing I've noticed is every time you set up inside of Google Tag Manager, a Google Ads conversion event, it always to ask you do you want to add the conversion linker as well. And a lot of people don't know what that is, you can you can Google it and search on it. And it just basically says, this is something that helps link up your initial ad page view with the URL parameter that says GCL ID, and then there's that long string of numbers. It helps connect that with, you know, a conversion event that happens now in your funnel. And you're thinking, okay, cool, great. That makes tons of sense. But how that works is it has to set a specific cookie for the conversion linker with the Google Click ID, which is that long string of things when people click on it, and then it has to track that cookie through all of these steps. And then, and then finally, at the very last thing, it has to send that back. And the reality is, is that there's also a lot of places for it to get lost to, for it to get lost. So really, the absolute best setup is to have the global site tag on your page. And that is on every single page of your site. Yep. And then there's a different global site tag for analytics. And for ads. Yes. So that's, that's one thing you got to think about, you can actually combine those together into one tag, but you have to set a little variable that says This one's for analytics, and this one's for ads, that goes on every page. And then and then you just load the conversion event on your, on your thank you page, whether it's a lead, thank you, or like a purchase, thank you page or whatever. And that's it. It's very simple for a developer to do, or even a non developer to just copy and paste those those codes on there. But Greg Marshall  8:54  the moral of the story is simple. Just pay a developer make this simple communication. Yeah. So that the information doesn't get lost. Blake Beus  9:03  Yeah, in any literally, if it's something that you don't know how to do, that's fine. Any competent developer could literally do this in five to 10 minutes. Like it's not, it's really super simple. And so it's not a complicated thing for a developer to do. Just find someone that knows your, your platform, whatever your website's built on. And then any developer can make that happen in five to 10 minutes. Unknown Speaker  9:25  Well, here's the next question, then that leads us to what we were texting back and forth about yesterday, which was Greg Marshall  9:32  okay, so if we have to, let's see if we have the tracking on there. But what about our page site? Experience? Unknown Speaker  9:39  So you had mentioned that? Oh, yeah. Ah, yeah. Had a certain score. Yeah. For the mobile. Why don't we go and Blake Beus  9:45  yeah, and we can just dive right. We can dive right into that. So we were talking about the actual SM three group that I talked about on here, kind of at the end. We're running we're testing out a few new ads and things like that and, and the page has been out there for a while. Now And I was looking at the numbers. And not surprisingly, almost 90% of all the views, all the clicks. For our it's a YouTube ad and all the all the page views were from mobile devices. Yep. And that's not surprising because everybody has a mobile device these days. Yep. But the problem is a lot of people build for desktop, because you're writing code on desktop, or whatever. And I do the same thing. So I just quickly went over to Google has a couple of tools. And there's some other tools PageSpeed Insights is one where you can basically calculate what your quality score is for the page from a mobile experience standpoint. And Google does clearly say from ads, that they do take that quality score into account for for who your who's gonna see your ads, and it can actually lower your costs. Anyway, the quality score was not as good as I thought it was. And I'm a developer that pays attention to this stuff. So it's very easy to just kind of let these things go. Yep, go away. So. So anyway, there's gonna be a few things that will make few changes will make to that page to make it load faster. Make sure that it's responsive and a little bit better way. Make sure it's got a good hierarchy of data. And what I mean by that is, section headings are bigger fonts. Sub titles are slightly smaller, maybe different way, it just, it has to do with readability and easy to kind of like quickly scan through. And then the other thing I was thinking about too is on the mobile experience, some of our key language on the landing page doesn't show on page load, you have to scroll down a little bit to see some of the key phrases that that that we put in there to help get people to take action. So we're gonna kind of scrunch some of that up, maybe, maybe rearrange some things on mobile. So the, the key language we want people to see is right at the top right at the top, and they can see here's Greg Marshall  11:57  a question I have. What about, you know how they have accelerated mobile pages? Is there any value to that? Is there any pros or cons? Yeah. Oh, Blake Beus  12:09  yeah, absolutely. So Accelerated Mobile Pages or amp, you've probably come across these, everybody probably has. It's a it's a thing where basically, Google takes they basically, they basically scrape your website, cache that, put it on their servers. And then and then when someone clicks on that, from Google search results, it will load that fast version of the page. Can Can you directly send someone to an app page or No, you? Because I noticed you can say it was search. So only if they search? Yeah. Can that patient? Yeah. So how, how that would work. So by search, if you choose to opt into Google amp, then anybody that clicks on your links from search will get the AMP page. If you grab the amp URL, you can send that amp URL to someone and have them load that page directly. But it's usually the URL is usually something like My website, it would be like It would it would be a different looking URL. But you could potentially send people send people directly to that. What I don't know is I don't know if you can send ads directly to that page. I have no idea. It's actually never thought about that. And Greg Marshall  13:26  I was wondering, could we send traffic to an AMP page? And if an AMP page, because it's, I'm assuming Google owns that kind of platform? Right? AMP is Google? Oh, yeah. Unknown Speaker  13:40  So then I would think, if you're using Google Adsense or Google property, would that impact it? Yeah. Like, would Greg Marshall  13:48  they basically favor a little bit more, as I'm saying, Yeah, Blake Beus  13:50  I don't know your, your quality scores would be much higher. Because the, they're putting it on a really fast server. They're caching everything, but they're also scraping out some of the JavaScript you might be running behind the scenes. So oftentimes, you might not get some of the tracking data that you would expect to get, especially if you're tracking on a non Google platform. So if you're using something like I don't know, ad roll, or Facebook pixel, or some of these things, by default, those things are not going to track, you have to do some extra work to get an AMP page to track that stuff. Greg Marshall  14:28  And so there would be the con basically, if you used an AMP page, you maybe you're tracking for pixel reasons wouldn't be as as effective. Right, Blake Beus  14:37  right. But and sometimes pages, because they're guessing, sometimes pages don't load correctly, if it's if it's a page that requires JavaScript to render certain things. And I've seen this happen before. I'll click on a page and I'm thinking this something's not right with this page. And you can actually go up to the top and click a couple of links and get to the non amp version of the page and then it starts working correctly. So there is some trade offs. Greg Marshall  15:02  So yeah, good now. So we've we've talked about tracking, right, and the importance of making sure your, your tracking codes are on as clean as possible samples Mazal, a direct communication to the ad platform, that's going to be the most effective. One thing to kind of transition from that is I was sharing with you someone that is currently running ads, yes, I love this. It has zero tracking pixels, like none, literally zero, that's amazing. Nothing, no analytics, no Facebook pixel, no, Google Pixel, and he's running ads on these platforms really. And he had mentioned to me that he had, he's been making sales at a decent clip, by the way, purely with no tracking, right, which goes against a lot of what these platforms will tell you to do. So that actually teaches a very important lesson, which the lesson is the messaging is the most important than absolutely, because without the right message, he wouldn't get any of these responses. Now, you can make the argument that if he's making great sales with no tracking, that his messaging might be as tight as you possibly can make it. Which means if you implement the tracking, and help optimize these pixels, he may be able to see great results. Because if it's working with no tracking, and a straight old school, just put this ad in front of people and use your message to get them to buy, then that means your your message is probably on point. So I would focus, no matter how much tracking we do. Never forget that you have to make sure you're actually talking to the right person. And that you have a strong marketing message. Yeah. And that's, that's everything. Blake Beus  16:53  Yeah, it's absolutely everything. And when when people start talking about split testing audiences and stuff, that's a great place to start. And we've talked about that. But you really should look at split testing your messaging, yes. And not and that's not just your messaging in your ad. That's the messaging on the landing page. And, and if you if you're using video, the messaging on your video and and seeing what's working, and then when you find out what's working, work to align all of those. So they're all in line with one another. So the messaging in the ad directs people to the landing page, which has the basically the next logical step of that messaging and the content on that page is the next logical step of the messaging, because that's super important. Yes. Greg Marshall  17:38  And one thing that, you know, when I first started running ads, there, I don't think there was actually pixels that shows you kind of Yeah, how, how many years ago that was? I don't think there was actually any conversion pixel. Actually, there wasn't I remember, because at the time, it came out maybe a few months later, okay, I remember thinking it being a big deal. Like, wow, there's this there's that Facebook, is that were you saying? Yes. And so with, with Facebook with these, I remember focusing heavy on the messaging. And I was actually using engagement campaigns, at the time, because there was only traffic engagement, you know, there was no conversion. And so I was using engagement campaigns. And I remember spending so much time on the messaging and split testing the messaging. And by the way, this is before I actually knew what split testing was, okay, I just from a sales background, I just knew certain things work better than others in face to face sales when I just took the same logic, yeah, to the advertising. And I remember, kind of fine tuning a couple of messages that were geared towards personal trainers. And there were different hooks and angles that worked better than others. And when you put them all together with the right picture, the right words, the right call to action, and then the right at the time, their funnel was they respond, then you get them into a Facebook Messenger, then you get them to a phone call to get them into person that was actually the funnel but has no tools to support that. So we just did it all manually. But we optimized each part of that funnel. But it all started with the messaging, right? Because we noticed, when I tested a certain message versus another, it would attract a totally different person. And that's, I think, when you first hear testing your messages, I think, at least I know on my end, it's easy to dismiss. Yeah, like does the message really make that much of a difference, especially on who responds to the targeting says it's targeted to this person. So like, maybe you shouldn't have to work on that as much. But I don't think that's the case. I actually think the message is split testing the message is more important than I think a lot of us give credit to because it just seems like how could a set of words or a picture make that much of a difference? Blake Beus  20:07  Yeah. And if you if you think about, you know, the olden days, yes, you know, I always go back to direct mail marketing marketing back in Canada. Dang, seriously, you guys got to lightest of all, you got to look at Dan Kennedy. And you got to read some of the material from from people that did direct direct mail marketing back in the 50s. And 60s Because they didn't have fancy pixels to send data back in, in near real time as to what was working. And so they put a lot of effort into the messaging. And just because we have all of these fancy tools now doesn't mean that the messaging is has gone away, we're, we humans haven't evolved that much like we still we still want the messaging. And it's easy to get a little lazy with testing your messaging by saying, well, let's say free download on this one, versus instant download on that one like, that can make a difference. But that's not me that we're not that's not what we're talking about. When we're talking about the messaging, we're talking about, really diving in deep to, to who you're targeting, you know, what their hopes and dreams are, what their fears are, like, get that stick and carrot going? Like, how can we help them run away from what they don't want? And how do we help them run towards what they do want, and connect the dots very clearly between what the offer is and how they can get what they want. Whatever that is with it with fitness. That doesn't necessarily mean I want to shed 50 pounds, sometimes that's the correct message. But other times, the message is actually different. Maybe it's maybe it's I'm a little bit worried about my health, because I have family members that have X, Y and Z health problems. And so I don't, I don't necessarily want to shed weight, but I want to get in a good routine now. Yeah, that kind of an understanding, they need to take that understanding and turn that into a marketing message that you got to have dive in, you got to dive in a little deeper on things. Greg Marshall  22:01  I think we and we've talked about this before, but I think we've gotten so spoiled. And I I will be a part of this group. So I'm not saying I have never been spoiled, is yeah, I'm actually a part when I say we included Yeah, we've been spoiled. I've noticed a direct. This has been the iOS change. And less tracking has actually been refreshing for me. And I'll tell you why. Because for a good stretch of maybe two to three years, the pixels were so accurate, that you can just throw up anything, and it will convert, right, like literally anything because the target did all the work for you. Right? And what that I noticed that during that timeframe, there was less and less talk about ad copy and the importance of what you're writing and all that stuff. And it was more about the technology. Right, right. And what that actually train everyone to do was to get not as effective with their messaging. And what that means I look at it like this. We all know well, not we all but many people know how to ride a bike or drive a car or run or do whatever, play basketball. But what you find out is if you take two years off three years off of anything, I don't care how high level you were. When you were at your peak. You are rusty. Yeah. And you're not as good as you are until you get back to that. Yeah. And I've noticed that over time, I think the entire market has gotten to that point where they're relying so much on technology, that they stopped practicing their marketing skills. And now, it might just be a perception that things are harder now. But really, it's kind of like if you haven't played baseball in two years, that 95 mile an hour fastball hasn't changed. It just feels harder, because you haven't been seen. Yeah. Right. And so I think that's kind of what's happened with, well, there's all this tracking gone, it feels like maybe it's more difficult, but I would actually argue it's probably everything's the same. It's just that your skill set, you've let it kind of dwindle during these good times of Blake Beus  24:19  pixel tracking, or you hopped in when the good times were happening. And this This feels like the end of the world because you're only used to you know what, what things were, which is a little bit where I was I kind of hopped in to advertising again from like the software engineering side of things. And so tracking and all that stuff was exactly what I focused on. And I hopped in kind of at the good time before before everything kind of shifted. Yeah, before everything kind of shifted. Right. But I would say the one thing I did early on is I realized that that the message was super important. So I dove in deep on reading a lot of books. I haven't gotten a copy of it. You know what that what, what is that there's this one ad book that's not real. The imprint anymore instead of $450, written by this guy I know you're talking about, I can see the cover, but I need to, I can see the cover too. But we'll we'll figure out what it is until he goes next time, but I even have a copy of that, that I've read through and has some gold in it. But, but yeah, marketing messages is extremely important. And if you think Greg Marshall  25:19  about it, you know, I always go to Dan Kennedy, Dan Kennedy warned us about, I don't know, five, six years ago, where he was mentioning, you do not want to rely on these algorithms and this type of targeting because they're going to take away who you can target. Yeah. And he mentioned because of that, you're going to be susceptible, unless you get the direct response marketing techniques down. And once again, he was right. 100%. And, you know, what I found is, from people who've done it a longer time, you know, because he's older. They always know because this all works in cycles. Yeah, right. It's very similar to fitness. carbs are bad for you one day, they're great for you the next day, fat is good for you, then it's fats battery. It's just Blake Beus  26:10  It's a never ending cycle. But what never changes is the marketing message exact like is the psychology of people, right? Like maybe there's a different angle, because there's because the offer is something new that didn't exist a while ago. But we but that psychology and focusing on the message is always going to be a constant. So the good marketers are those that focus on understanding that understanding the customer persona, and it's honestly, it's hard work it is it's it's really hard work, especially when you have limited characters, you could put in an ad. So you've got to find a way to get that message in there. In a certain space or whatever, we only Greg Marshall  26:44  have so much time, that's the other thing with ads is you only have a couple seconds to hook them in. So you've got to be effective quick. And if you're not, the, your mark is just not gonna work as well. And we no longer have these mega advanced. I mean, we the pixels are still there. Yeah. And they're way smarter than we were 789 10 years ago, but they're not what they were the last two or three. Yep. So train yourself back up to, you know, working on your marketing messaging and thinking about from start to finish versus I'll just throw it out there. Let the targeting do the work and right. Blake Beus  27:20  Watch the money come in. Yeah. And so to kind of wrap things up, because people I mean, you might be thinking, if you're listening to this right now, you guys started off talking nothing about just about tracking everything. Now we focused into this. But they're, they're extremely, extremely related, right? Like, you definitely want to make sure your tracking is is as good as you can make it. And if there's a couple of simple tweaks you can do to make that really, really good. Great. And that's what we want to do. But then you got to spend time focusing on the messaging and getting that messaging, right. Because as you have shown, some people out there not knowing what they're doing, crush the messaging and still make sales. Yep. Which many marketers would think that's crazy, that would never happen. Greg Marshall  28:03  But it's definitely possible. And so you need both you need both the and the key to these tracking mechanisms is to help drive your decisions on what's working. But don't overly rely on them to do all the work. Right. So that's why you need Blake Beus  28:18  both. Yep. All right. So we'll wrap this up here, Greg, people. Greg Marshall  28:22  So if you want to go ahead and reach out to me, Greg, you can go ahead and book a free strategy session. I'm Blake Blake Beus  28:27  how to do get a hold, just like And there's a SM3 group that Greg's actually yes involved in now and helping with now where you can communicate with us, kind of directly with weekly Q and A's and all of that stuff. Greg Marshall  28:40  So join the SM3 group. You'll get more information like this podcast. Yeah, absolutely. Kate will talk to you later. Bye.  

Wednesday Apr 27, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript   Blake Beus  0:10  All right is pretty centered, right? Okay, I think we're good. Yeah, we're good. All right. All right. So we're going to talk about, Greg Marshall  0:23  we're gonna do unique, unique bundles. Okay. Blake Beus  0:26  All right. Okay. Okay. So we were talking about different ways to bundle things. And I was telling you about some something unique that I saw and I wanted to like, dive in deep. So everybody's probably heard have heard of NF T's right now. Yeah, but not a ton of people, like know a whole lot about them. In fact, I'm one of them. Yeah. So if you were to guess, like, what would you say? Greg Marshall  0:49  To be honest? All I think of NF T's is some Gary Vaynerchuk. itself. That's, that's honestly what I think. And I think I've seen Tai Lopez talk about it. Yeah. And the the standard guys that are out there that are using up on the trends. Yeah. So that's, that's my extent. And I haven't looked, I think I've seen one called board eight. Yeah, that's a Tai Lopez one. I don't know if it's Blake Beus  1:13  one like that. That's those, the board eight collection is the most expensive NFT collection out there. Greg Marshall  1:19  So yeah, but outside of that, Oh, no. Blake Beus  1:22  So here's, here's what I here's what I saw. Interesting. So recently, one of my friends was telling me they saw they saw this and I dove into it looked into it a little bit. But Russell Brunson offered an NFT kind of bundle for anybody that purchased tickets to to live in called funnel, hacking live or whatever that that that is, he also offered an NF T to people to watch like a free webinar, basically getting people to do that. And then, and then one person that claimed the NFT was going to get essentially, well, everyone's gonna get entered into a drawing. And one person with an NFT with with that particular collection of NF T would win, basically free access to all of his recorded courses for life got because of the NFT. Yeah. And, and what what I found interesting about this was, this was essentially, he used a trending topic, that not a lot of people know what they actually are, but they've heard of them, offered one of these things, which is a digital thing to people for free, attached to real world value to it. And along the way, basically taught people how, how to create how to sign up for and receive and kind of manage NF T's all along the way. And he did all of that to people that don't know what NF T's are. Yeah, it's almost like they're going after people similar, like me, Greg Marshall  2:52  have heard, you know, NF t, it must be of some value. Yeah. Because people keep talking about Yeah. And so my assumption is, well, this NFT must have some value. So maybe I would want that. Yeah. Right. So it's almost like it's marketed perfectly to someone like me, who has enough knowledge to know that it exists, but not enough to actually know like, once I have it, what do I do? Blake Beus  3:16  Right? Well, and that's what I found most interesting about, and I can explain exactly what an NF t is, in a minute. But before doing that, what I found most interesting about this was he was able to use a trending topic, to incentivize people by bundling this unique thing, and offering a chance to win something. And it probably boosted sales by a large margin. Yes. And it got me thinking about just unique bundles, which you've talked about bundles before. Yeah. But I feel like the greater principle here is not necessarily the NF T's. Yeah, it's, it's that you need to be thinking about how to create a an offer that is a bundle offer that's interesting and harder, hard to you know, turn your back on. And it's it's unique, and it creates urgency and value. That is what was more interesting to me. And I feel like more businesses need to really think about this, Greg Marshall  4:17  I think, excuse me, I think what we can learn from it is how to make your offer more sexy to the audience right? Sometimes we have offers that maybe you know, they go stamp right so hey, you know, come sign up for this come sign up for that only works for so long before people are like, Oh, I'm no longer interested in that because we all have the attention span of like 10 seconds, right? And we want the new shiny object syndrome. And what I think a lot of these guys do very well, especially Russell Brunson is they know how to they understand that people have shiny objects? Yeah. So they know how to use that to their advantage. Right, right. And there's nothing wrong with that. No, that's literally what marketing is, is be to finish the conversation or continue the conversation has gone on in the customer's mind. And that's what they do is they are able to figure out how do I make the offer that maybe is has not changed at all? And how do I kind of reinvigorate it by go ahead and putting something new and fresh and to write the offering? Right, Blake Beus  5:21  new and fresh? And, like, in a way that doesn't increase your overhead? Correct? Right? Because Because like NFT was something that it may be cost. Russell Brunson. 50 bucks to mint to mint some NFT. And then he gave them to I don't know, 1000s of people probably. And then some time, right? Because there's some technical knowledge and he's happened to create your own NFT. But, you know, it just gets me thinking. If you pay attention, you see this. In in gyms, you see this with, with, with lots of different businesses, horses and horses. And it's but it's easy to forget when you're creating your own stuff, because it's almost like you're too close to your own business. You're too close to it or whatever. Right. It's Greg Marshall  6:10  too. Yeah. So that's a that's a great point. Because that's a challenge that I believe everyone has. I've had this before, we all believe that just our offer alone, because we did it is special enough. Yeah. But we don't if we take like an honest look and say, Is this intriguing enough to get someone actually want to do this? Right? Usually the answer's no. Right? I mean, usually you do have to work on really kind of making it something that people want to, that they become attracted to. And one rule of thumb that I have found, is whatever, it's almost like whatever you dislike out there, as far as how things are being sold, is how you're gonna have to sell. Right, right. So we all hate or I hate ads. I hate this. I hate when one more special offer. That's not all. But that all works. Right? Right? And so it's almost like you have to make a deal with yourself to say, you know, I don't necessarily love to sound that way. But it obviously worth it. Because yeah, that's how these guys are making millions and millions. Yeah, absolutely. Blake Beus  7:16  And, like one of the things I think about a lot is, it's almost like you need it's almost like you need multiple multiple offers one to get people in the door. And then one to keep keep them there. Especially when you have a business that's maybe a service based business with recurring revenue, or or people come back or you have returning customers or, or some sort of subscription or membership plan, like a gym or whatever, whatever. Right. So like, we talked about gyms a lot, because you have a background, it's kind of an easy thing to visualize. But when you were selling gym memberships, I'm guessing you had something to get people in the door. And then once they were in the door, you did some things to keep them coming through the door. Greg Marshall  7:58  Yeah. Right. You always had, you know, people, these are this is the example of stay offers now, you know, the seven day trial pass free personal training session. So you know, free nutrition plan, you know, you had to find a way to make the same thing sounds different. Right. Right. And so that's exactly it. You always had like some kind of heard some kind of, you know, we've talked ethical clickbait in this in this instance, it's ethical walk through the door Bay. And it's, you know, you basically want people to try something out, and you have to do something that makes them say, I'm willing to exchange my time for whatever it is. Blake Beus  8:37  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you can you can even see this in real estate, we were talking about real estate a little bit earlier, right? Like, there's 1000 real real estate agents in the local area here that I could reach out to any one of them. But why would I go with this person over this person? And oftentimes, it has to do with more than just the fact that they can show me some houses? Greg Marshall  9:01  Yeah, that's the most I guess. It's a very competitive space, because a real estate agent can't change homes to make their home better. Right? They're literally selling the same exact thing. So they have to figure out unique ways to stand out that has nothing to do with the actual product. And that's, that's how you win is because most of the stuff that we're all making is not new. None of none. Everyone has done what we most likely are offering. Yeah, it's how can we spin it to see different new, exciting, intriguing, and that's that's the name of the game. Yeah, right. Real estate agents are no different fact. They probably have one of the hardest jobs because you have to literally figure out how do I stand out from the 1000s and 1000s of people selling literally the same product in the same exact area and the consumer knows, no different, Blake Beus  9:58  right? And you can just mark everything off 20% Yeah, he Greg Marshall  10:01  can't give it this guy. Can I mean, I guess you could probably figure out ways to do that. But there's only so much you can do. Yeah, yeah. And Blake Beus  10:09  so you have ways to kind of like a realtor their way of bundling, is you're bundling basically, your service and your personality. And that's what comes with the purchase and whatever. And that's kind of a probably a harder place to think about bundling. But the bundling does work. It's almost like, the more common your product is, the harder and longer you need to think about how to separate, right, because they have seen your room, literally, yep, for 1015 20 years, the same sale offer, but the same exact sale offer so you have to change it up. You sell these tactics that a Russell Brunson uses where you take the same offer. And you make it sound like it's new by adding something that's trending. Yeah. Maybe give them an NF T for every house. Greg Marshall  11:02  Fine Art painting, you know, but one of the other challenges, I think in real estate and you know, financial markets is there's limits to what you can do as far as legal. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like there are regulations. You can't just do anything like can't say, buy this house. And I'll give you I literally will give you $5,000 back. Yeah, new cars. I mean, at least to my knowledge, I don't think do that. Yeah, absolutely. Blake Beus  11:27  Absolutely. Speaking of bundles, I know we talked about this one, and I want to keep bringing it back. Because in my mind, this was one of the more interesting bundles I've ever seen. But it was Gary Vee when he said when he launched his book back in August, I think is what it was. And the book had something to number 12 Like, marketing principles of stuff. I don't know. I didn't I didn't read it didn't work for me, I guess but. But he basically said if you buy 12 of these books and send my team that receipt will give you a free NFT Yeah, is what it was. And he sold like a million books at first 24 hours with that offer. And again, the NFT didn't cost him any money. Yeah, but what he did is he essentially convinced people to buy 12 have something Yeah, normally only by one. Yep. He 12x Yep. The average order number just by doing just by bundling with this, like free NFT or whatever. So but yeah, I don't know. We talked about NF t's a lot. Do you think it would be worth diving into a little bit of what NF T's are like you want me to spend a couple of years Greg Marshall  12:26  I don't even know to be honest. I am not I know it's like some digital and there's something that's a value I but I to be honest, I'm lost. I'm what entities actually. Blake Beus  12:37  Yeah. So I mean, NF T stands for non non fungible token, which really doesn't mean a whole lot. So it is non fungible means it's irreplaceable, right? So fungible means is replaceable. So the easiest way to think about this is in terms of $1. Bill. Yeah, if I give you $1 bill, it doesn't matter which dollar bill I give you. It's worth $1. Right? Now that that means it's fungible, doesn't matter which one it is, every time I give you $1 Worth It is worth $1. Now, something that's non fungible, would be something like a collector's edition dollar from the early 1800s that had a misprint and there was only like 10 of them. And nine of them were burned in the Chicago Fire and you have this only one one at $1. Bill, that $1 bill. It's It's irreplaceable. Yeah, that that is the the only one of those it's non fungible. Greg Marshall  13:32  So So NF T's are basically just collectibles, like Limited Edition type stuff. Yeah. If you think about him, like a limited edition of Michael Jordan, autograph card that I have. That's, that can be somewhat of an NFT. Right. Not. I mean, I practice some process to make this Yeah. And Blake Beus  13:49  it wouldn't be it would be non fungible, but it wouldn't be a token, it would be a non fungible thing, right. Like it's this collector's thing. So if you start thinking about NF T's like a, like a collector's thing, then they start making a little bit more sense on why this this board ape sold for 1.2. Guys. Baseball cards. Yeah, digitally. Yeah, yeah. Now the other the other aspect of that is if you have Michael Jordan card that signed or baseball card that's signed by Sandy, So sir, whatever. Typically, you need some sort of authentication certificate, certificate of authentication, right? Well, with non fungible tokens, it's a digital thing. So the certificate of authentication is on the blockchain, okay? Right. And blockchain, all blockchain is at a high level is a ledger of, of transactions essentially. So you think of it like a ledger book in accounting, you have your debits and credits, that's all it is at a high level. And so essentially, the transaction would be I created this NFT and then I transacted by giving it to you for however much you paid for it. And now everybody can look at the blockchain and say Greg's wallet Greg's wallet address, which no one else can face up. Greg owns that NFT. And you could sell that Greg Marshall  15:08  I can see now now that you explained that right now, okay, so it makes sense on why the younger demo is so excited about this. Because the instantly putting myself back into when I'm 1314 years old, how interested I was in baseball cards, and the value and trade I used to trade baseball all the time, I was a kid. And this basically just sounds like this is a new form, but real money involved in collecting baseball cards. I have this unique, you know, rookie card, or, you know, Michael Jordan, and no one else has it. And I got it and Don Ross's, you know, bag, one once upon a time. And so I was like hitting the lottery in a way you're like, I've Blake Beus  15:54  got this really valuable thing that Yep, people want? Uh huh. And, and there's only so many of them, right? And so because you have it, the value is super high. And you could actually transfer that and get money for it. Yeah, that's basically NF T's are is like, basically baseball cards. Yep. Now we can take it to one level higher, though. Now imagine that there was a special event that only people that had this limited edition signed baseball card could go to, okay, so now there's this real world, like, value for having it not just value that owning it, and I could sell it, but you're getting value out of, you're getting actual value right now by by being the owner because it's your ticket to get in the door out to this elite thing is the I see. So basically, it has like dual value, because now I can you sell it. But you can use it as a way to be part of Greg Marshall  16:50  a VIP group or Blake Beus  16:52  part of a club, right you can, you can attach some real world value. Now that has less to do with like the technology itself and more to do with basically saying, as the creator of this NFT. If you own this NFT, then I will provide this real world value to you. So there's no like, technical, you've got to scan your NFT to get in the door. It's just like, we're only going to send invites out to people. And you can verify that on the website before we give you the ticket that you're the owner of that NFT. And then you get into that or you get with Russell Bronson's case you get entered into a drawing, yep, right. With Gary Vee, he offered, he basically said there's going to be some events and things that you'll be able to come to, or you could offer people discounts if they're NFT, owner or whatever, right? So and that's where we're starting to see a little bit of a transition, where because, again, as a creator, I can create an NFT. And it cost me maybe $50, in what's called gas fees to mint those. But then I can give them out to whoever because they're there to create, I created them. And when I created them, I could say there's only going to be 100 of these. And once that's done, it's locked in, I'd have to create a new collection in order for me to Greg Marshall  18:04  can there be so something that I have a question about is could there be an oversaturation of entities? Oh, yes, it is. Yeah. So is this a hurry up and get in early now? Before it's too late type deal? Or is this? Like, it's still the value is still be based on who created the entity? And that doesn't matter. Yeah. Blake Beus  18:25  Right. More of the latter, because what we're seeing is a shift, right? The whole get in early kind of happened like 18 months ago. And that's where all of these that's more than a cent, all the others. The frenzy happened and everything and, and in order to play that game, you got to drop some serious money. Like, I think the cheapest board ape is maybe $50,000 or something like that idea. I Greg Marshall  18:51  do know that the board. That's why I remembered it because I I heard that it was extremely expensive. Yeah, sounds like wow, what is that? I don't even know what it is. But after this explanation, I don't know why people would pay that Blake Beus  19:04  right. And I think boarded gets you into some events and some other either some of the real world benefits for being an owner. But what we're starting to see now in my eyes is is a shift, where you're starting to see NF T's being given away. Because we want to provide some additional value or whatever, or that value can be bought and traded and sold and traded and sold in whatever Greg Marshall  19:31  country club. Yeah, so yeah, it's like having a membership at a concert. Yeah, you could, Blake Beus  19:35  you could do that. Or you could, you could launch a commemorative NFT for anybody that did this Krump commemorative event, or all of you the VIP members are the founding members of a particular group. Everyone gets an NF T and there was only 50 of those because there's only 50 members and now you're the owner of that and it's not really worth selling. But basically it's like a badge or a metal that you can wear or a ribbon that says that that was me. I'm the authentic you know, if the authenticate, you know what I'm thinking now that I understand NF T's now that you've explained it to me. And this manner, Guru marketing might take a whole nother level. Because the smart ones out there, the ones that are always on the newest trends, they're going to be able to utilize this as a way to make their guru status even more cemented. Yeah. Right? Because you can use this as hey, you know, you're at my country club now. Yeah. And if you want to be closer affiliated to, you know, buy this, or get this and you can create value just from being affiliated with you. Through these NFT. Yes, because you're the only one Yeah, yeah, I think we're gonna see a lot of creative use cases for this, where they're not necessarily being sold and traded as collector's items, but they're being used in ways that we probably can't imagine. But they're being used to basically say, Yeah, I was there, or Yeah, I did that, or, yeah, I'm part of this group. And I'm Greg Marshall  21:02  not saying that's a bad thing. No, I don't think that's so I'm actually saying the guru marketing. And I know guru sometimes negative connotation, but I guess an influencer or someone that is creating stuff or like you're using the creators, they could use it to build a more loyal following, and really create some cool stuff. I mean, if you think about it, if you've got a specific, let's say, an actor, right? Like, I love the rock, or the rock created one of these, and he saw an NFT. That was like, if you buy this, you have access, you could literally meet the rock. Yeah, at his next movie, Sean. But you know, it costs you $10,000 on this, and every time he rolls out in the movie, you can be there. Yeah. You know, now, that's interesting. Blake Beus  21:48  That's interesting, like, and that's something that could be sold down the road to someone else. And Greg Marshall  21:53  I can see that value. Because there's two types of value. One could be, you know, an acquiring and selling value, like a house, right? I buy a house and I sell it I'm making money off or it can be something that caseloads you. Similar to like, if an actor gives you this, it's almost like a cache on a way where it's like, I have unique access to this person. Anytime when they brigade something, and that's a value, I value that more than the transaction value selling. Right. Blake Beus  22:25  Exactly. Exactly. And I think I think it's ultimately good because of this is very approachable, because because a lot of a lot of tactics and strategies, and all of these things can sometimes feel like they're, they're not approachable, unless you're you've already made it. Yeah, right. But something like this is, is approachable, there is a technical learning curve. But it's something that your typical internet savvy person could probably figure out in a few days, how to mint, their own NF T's. And how to use those to provide value to again, their group, their club, their, their, their business is at a customer, thank you, whatever. And some of your customers will be like, Yeah, whatever. But some of them will think it's really interesting and amazing. You know, it's funny, I think, and I have a client now that I have a better understanding of who would absolutely dominate this. I'm not gonna say who it is. But I'm gonna bring it up to them tomorrow. Yeah. And mentioned, they really should think about this, this technology, because the nature of their business is actually in the collectibles space are real, and they sell very unique stuff. And so with that being said, and I don't think they're looking at this, the CEO, he's always on top of things. Yeah. But he's very, he's operations. He's constantly thinking of innovative operational ways to do things. I don't know if he's seen this particular trend, like, it's actually spent much time on this, and I'm gonna present it to him and say, you know, you really should consider since the nature of your business fits perfectly with this. Yeah, that's I mean, that's a I think that's a great use case. Another use case that kind of came to mind here would be you know, Russell Brunson has his two comma club for anybody that uses Click Funnels to, to sell over a million dollars of something you get to comment, you could do something similar like when, I don't know if you're, if you're in health and fitness, or maybe you're helping with weight loss or whatever. When someone hits their goal, they get an NFT, right, or when someone hits some sort of milestone stat, like, there's like an NFT that they will get out of that that they can again present as like this badge of honor. You can even create, like little like a landing page on some of these sites that will basically say, Hey, this is my page. It's cryptic, lat graphically verified to be mine. And here's all of the badges of honors as aka NF T's that I have, and you can display those off. Yeah. So I think NF T's you know, so So, if we round it back to how you can apply this to mark, and number one is, I mean, NFT sounds like it hits all the boxes as far as solid marketing, which is, you know, create some kind of community with your customer, create something unique, create something that's intriguing and exciting, new, innovative. I mean, it's checking off all the boxes, it's a different offer, right? Not everyone can get it, you can have some exclusivity. So that's basically the moral of the story of NF T's and anything that you do your marketing is, how do we make the offer, hit these check these these boxes, how they check off the boxes, so that people respond. So people are excited about what you have. Because at the end of the day, when people are looking to market their products and services, with the route when they say I want to market my stuff, what they're saying is I want to get sales today. Yeah, right. That's what they mean. And, or faster. If it's not today, it's if it takes me 90 days gives me how do I get it and 45. Right. And so this is how you do it, right? You create offers that are unique and different, exciting, creates urgency creates, you know, Country Club feel, Greg Marshall  26:17  maybe you can't get in so if I buy this, so there's different angles to use. So I could see how NFT is applied. Basically. Standard fundamental market. Blake Beus  26:29  Yeah. And if you're out there listening, and you're like, NF T's, I don't want to go down this tech rabbit hole or, or maybe you're not a technical person. There is a way you can apply the same principles in any sort of way. Like I guess it Russell Brunson is two comma club. Yeah, it's a plaque. Right. plaques are not new. Yeah. But it was a very sought after thing, because of how hyped up it was, and everything along those lines. And there's a lot of there's a lot of different ways to to please. Greg Marshall  26:57  Russell Brunson is a Blake Beus  26:58  marketing genius. And I have no problem saying that he's very, very skilled at what he does. And a lot of things that he does, is cutting edge. It's new, exciting. It checks all the boxes that we just talked about. And I think you can learn a lot from what he's doing, versus what people are saying, right? If you watch what he's doing, and try to mimic that in your own way. Greg Marshall  27:23  You know, you could you can win. Yeah. Blake Beus  27:25  You know what I'm most jealous of him about? It doesn't seem like he overthinks everything over things. So he's well, he's always like doing something when he throws a video out there. He just he just gets it out there. Yeah. And and I talked to people about this in my membership all the time. And I'm Yeah, I overthink a lot. Greg Marshall  27:42  Well, I think thinking of overthinking. Right, I think it's just because your skill set is a different skill set that he probably can never touch. Right. And so we all have a different way of how we think. And so what I mean for him, you know, he's he's like, he appears I don't know, but he appears to be creative, impulsive. So he could just sit here and think alone, believe idea and get it out to market within seconds. Right. Whereas some people may be someone that has a mindset of yours that knows how to build things. You're thinking, Well, how does that enter? Why would I launch that now? I just started like, two seconds ago, I can't just launch. I gotta think this because you're thinking of how will it you know, apply? And Blake Beus  28:30  that's everything. That's That's how like software engineers think. And again, that's my background. Yes. I love that. I came from software engineering over into marketing, because I feel like it gives me a super unique perspective and a lot of a lot of areas. But yes, that's a very much a software engineering like way to think about solving a problem. Greg Marshall  28:46  Well, and that's it's necessary, right? Because you can't just build something with no, absolutely no regard to everything else. Because they'll break. So yeah, I think that's, you know, that everyone kind of has a different skill set. And that's what I think he has that's really good is he's probably on the high level of creativity and impulses. So he probably, I'm assuming, you know, because he's from Idaho, I think he's LDS. So he doesn't have any of these bad habits. He should never get into gambling in Las Vegas. Exactly. We're proud for that search Blake Beus  29:23  to make to make you feel better and Russell's actually shared this video but he's got a video of him out there at his very first like sales conference trying to sell something. Yeah. And he's like fumbling with WordPress. It's terrible. It's terrible. It's awful. And and so if you're out there and you're thinking I could never be like charismatic. I definitely find that it's out there on YouTube. Some find that and you'll you'll think, oh, everyone starts somewhere. Everyone starts somewhere and but yeah, so hey, let's wrap this up. Everyone. Go go get it Greg. Greg Marshall  29:56  Yeah, you can book a strategy session called me if you need some help with tomorrow. think Greg Marshall Dotco What about you, Blake? Blake Beus  30:02  Like, like you stock calm and I have a membership on there where I help people with social media marketing. So well, great, Greg Marshall  30:09  I think hopefully enjoyed this session. I know I learned a lot about NF T's and I can see what's so attractive about it. Yeah. So thank you, Blake for educating me on that. And until next time, Blake Beus  30:20  we'll catch you guys later. Bye. Later.  

Wednesday Apr 20, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript   Blake Beus  0:01  Okay, yeah. All right, record. We are. We are recording. Okay, Greg, you're telling me that you've seen a lot of small, like small solo business owners people that were running their ads and things on their own. Getting more and more frustrated and stressed about ads. Yep. Now like running their own ads now and everything, like tell me tell me what you're seeing there. Yeah, Greg Marshall  0:32  what? So the overall vibe that it seems like that's going on as ever since iOS has changed. The tracking algorithms, all of the things I think you could kind of get away with is not working anymore. And I've seen a couple of people actually say that to a tee like things that used to work, no longer work anymore. Hmm. Right. Okay. That seems to be a theme that I'm hearing. And typically, one of the one of the other things I've seen with this is, there's a level of like, okay, what do we what do we do now? Like, so? If this isn't working? Now, what do we do? So it's kind of like, you mentally it's a mental game, right? So plays, it plays some head games with you? And you're like, alright, so if this old trick isn't working, where do we go now? And they're starting to feel, I think, a little bit pressured with the changes. Sorry about that guys. Just had some foul off the wall. But that's, that's the overall vibe that I'm getting. Are you hearing or seeing that and your space? And what are your thoughts on it? Blake Beus  1:40  Yeah, I'm definitely seeing. I mean, I'm definitely seeing that. The reality is, is like, even when I got back into running ads, four or five years ago, I've always been in marketing, but I never did the actual media buying. This has been a constant theme. Like everybody's like, the stuff that used to work is no longer working. And and so I feel like for some reason, we're always surprised that stuff that works two years ago is no longer working. But I think that's going to be the the constant is that we're constantly going to have, oh, what what worked last year, your your before is not going to work. But people keep getting surprised. I think where a lot of people where I'm seeing people get really hung up with this particular one is, is the iOS 14 really started a big shift. Yeah, that really impacted the capability of ad platforms, specifically Facebook, and their ability to actually track performance. And I feel like that is to bring us back full circle. We're seeing an impact the smaller businesses that that maybe are a little bit less established, or maybe don't have a full marketing team, or like a holistic we use the summer for a holistic marketing strategy that includes multiple channels, where they used to be able to rely just on like Facebook ads, yep. They are seeing their costs go up, they're no longer being profitable on those ads, the cost per leads are going up. And then people start panicking. Yes. And then they start just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. Yep. And and that's a really great strategy to waste a lot of money. Greg Marshall  3:27  Well, and here's, you know, here's something to kind of build on that, too. So the other thing that I'm finding, and I think this is what's causing the panic, or the feeling of like, I like to call out the walls are closing in is, not only is the tracking not as good, but the typical response. You know, we all have knee jerk responses, right? Yes. And we're going to do this. And what happens is the typical knee jerk response in the past would be well, I'll just go the organic route. Okay. But here's the challenge we're running into, are these platforms giving us more free organic reach? or less? Well, less, right. And it's and it's only gonna get smaller and smaller. Right? Yeah. And, and that's not necessarily because the platforms are like, Screw you Blake Beus  4:20  guys. Greg Marshall  4:21  They're purposely trying to hurt the business. It's it's mostly Blake Beus  4:24  because there's there's just more competition right there. Right. Like there's the the amount of people putting posts out there grows faster than the amount of eyeballs watching posts. Yes, typically. And so it gets harder and harder to kind of stand out and have have organic content that you know, makes sense. Now. Now, that being said, part of the holistic marketing strategy is the organic side effect. Right. But you and I have both seen that there's a lot of magic that happens when you're combining organic with pay. Yes. Right. And so you get those people that want to do just organic and that can work for a hand Full of PDL, that can work for the you get the people to want to do just, you know, just the other, you know, or gay just paid. And that can work as well. But when we take a step back, the businesses that are able to plow through the ups and downs of whatever is going to going to come? Are the the businesses that have this holistic approach that includes, you know, email or organic or paid ads on multiple platforms and everything, but the small business owner or the solo business owner, like they don't have time, sure to do all of those things. Yes. And so we're starting to see, in my opinion, we're starting to see a gap. Yes, right, a gap where established businesses can can take off and make a bunch of stuff happen. But it's, it's harder to start off as a solo business, or whatever, and bridge that gap to the point where you can, I don't know, have a team or have those systems in place or get those things figured out. It's like, I want to talk about some realistic theists, those people that are trying to jump from, from doing it themselves, or even just barely starting to the point where they can have a more holistic approach, or maybe even a team in place, like how can people bridge that gap? Greg Marshall  6:15  So here's something that I want to touch on real quick is the extreme on one or the other? Whether it be organic or paid. I always use the health analogies, that would be the equivalent of only eating fruit and nothing else, are only eating me and nothing else. Like it's there's no extreme way to do this. The best long term approach, yeah, is a blended approach. Right? So do both, right. Blake Beus  6:43  And that's a great analogy. Because even like even things like, you know, people can go on super strict diets to cut weight or whatever it goes super strict on keto, yep, whatever. But from a long term, perspective, five years, 10 years, whatever not gonna do that, it's, it's not feasible to stick with something like that. And it's probably not even healthy to stick with something like exactly more variety, or whatever. Greg Marshall  7:04  And so one of the things I want to mention is I've been doing in my past, I've been, I believe in whatever you have to do to generate the sales. And so I like to personally implement content marketing, paid, influencer marketing, email marketing, as many channels as you know, public speaking, as many channels as podcasting that you can use in order to generate business. Because, you know, I've been doing this for a while, and I've been in business on my own for a while. And I understand at one point, Twitter was the hottest thing ever. And now it's gone. I have seen that the ebbs and flows of how things change, right. And so change is part of the game. Yeah. And so this is why you want to focus on having multiple ways to do it. But I also understand the challenge when it's just you or a small group of people having to constantly maneuver things. Yeah. And so some practical advice I like to give is the following. So number one, go ahead and start utilizing, like, email marketing is something that we've talked about extensively. And yes, iOS changes will impact the reporting of open rates, on email marketing, but that doesn't mean that doesn't work. It just means you can't see as much detail as you used to write. And so I would definitely implement email marketing. And keep it simple. Write an email, it's, it's more about consistency, than thinking of some huge, elaborate thing that you have to do for email, like you're writing a school term paper. Blake Beus  8:47  Yeah. And odds are out there. Because you you'll hear, you'll hear, you know, other other people out there saying, Okay, you need a drip sequence. And it needs to take people down this story path where step one is this introduction. And step two, is this and this and this. And I'm not saying that's a bad strategy. But what I am saying is, that is an overwhelming strategy for some people. And if you're a busy business owner that has maybe just you and maybe one other person, that that can be so overwhelming that you just simply decide to not do it. You might be thinking, if I can't do it the right way. I'm not going to do it at all. Yep. But the reality is, is writing some sort of email, maybe start saying I can do I can do one a month or two a month, right? I can carve out the time and then you work up to like one a week or two a week and and you probably don't ever need to do more than that depending on your audience or your business model. But it's better to be consistently putting out email content than it is to follow some sort of elaborate story arc and your email because I don't know if you're like this, Greg, but I don't read every email that comes in my own notes. Like I don't really like having an email this emails that build off of one another. Kind of doesn't even work for me because I'm not there. The first night like I'm I read number one and then number six, and then maybe I'll go go back and read number five, if I was searching through my email popped up, but like, I don't read them in order. So just having like these little self contained emails that can be like three sentences long, yeah, have to be something elaborate. Greg Marshall  10:18  Well, and the other thing, you know, as far as what I always kind of fumble when I say this word, but deliverability. Right. So one of the things I found is, subject lines can't seem too spammy, like free or special sale or something like that, because that will hurt it. Having too many links, or too many pictures inside of the email also impacts whether your email gets into the promotions tab, or the primary tab, and then who you're sending it to, also matters. So you want to make sure that they're opting into your list. And you're not just like borrowing someone else's, and throwing them on your list. Right? Those are a few things that you talked about email marketing, you talked about, if you're gonna do organic, at the moment, excuse me, at the moment they have on Instagram, you can do that collaborators. That's a good feature, environmental averages. Yeah. And they created that because Instagram knows that reach organically is going down. So they have to provide some type of solution. Blake Beus  11:15  And if you're not familiar with that, with what that is, you may have seen it on on on Instagram. But it's essentially, if Greg and I wanted to post a collaborative post, it would essentially show up, and the identity would be both of our little circle dots. And the audience, the reach would cover both of our audiences. So it's a good way to cross pollinate follower lists. If if you want to collaborate with someone because you can get followers that way. And it's doesn't cost you anything. Yeah. And increases your reach. Yeah, it increases both both people's reach, right. So Greg Marshall  11:53  I mean, the other thing to think about is, I would and I know, there'll be some pushback on this, but there's a way to do it, I would seriously consider hiring an admin, some kind of assistant, and just pay them by the time that you're utilizing them and the beginning. So you don't have to hire someone that's doing, you know, 80 hours every two weeks, right out the gate, which is usually what people think, right, but they have to pay some salary, you can hire someone that can just work a few hours a week for you. Yep. But give them very specific, like tactical things to do for you. For example, writing the emails, gathering the emails, sending out text message marketing, maybe compiling some content to post for you, scheduling your content. These are, this is an investment that I think a lot of like smaller individual businesses really don't take into consideration, because they believe that they can't afford it Blake Beus  12:56  right. And like, I think we can pause there for just a second and talk about how to actually find, yeah, someone to help with this. So. So real quick, I have two kinds of shout outs, the very first thing I would do is, wherever you're at wherever you're living, I guarantee you, there's some sort of a Facebook group for local business owners, find that group, hop in that group participate a little bit, and then just say, Hey, I'm looking for someone to help me three or four hours a week, write a couple of social media posts, maybe write an email or two and just kind of helped me organize that effort for a few hours a week. And oftentimes, if the person isn't in that group, someone knows someone in someone in the group knows someone. And depending, depending on where you're at the price for that could range for, from anywhere from like 25 to $30, an hour to 40 to $50, an hour for a copywriter, depending on skill level and everything. But if you think about it from a business expense standpoint, that's, you know, two to three hours a week, yep. That's really not that big of a business expense for for, you know, a business that has steady revenue, or whatever is added can have a big impact on your online presence, and your ability to get some of these things done without having to come up with all of it yourself. Greg Marshall  14:19  Exactly. And I think that's if I were to boil down the biggest challenge an individual business owner has, it's, it's time, they don't have enough time to do all the things that they want to do to make the business succeed. And that's outside of like, when we start talking about having multiple marketing channels, you know, paid is only one kind of spoke of the marketing wheel. Right. And if you're not ready to do paid, you should be doing these organic methods. But if you can't do the organic methods, because you don't have enough time because you're either sir Losing a client or fulfilling your product, your business is going to slow down, I run into this with, you know, physical therapists, personal trainers, people that in the service industry have people that they're working with and so that it's like feast or famine. Yeah. And it's because they get so busy working with the clients, they stop marketing, they're no clients coming up is this big roller coaster marketing again, I get more clients and they stopped working. And it's just like, over and over again, versus having a consistent marketing going on at all times. One thing that you can never eliminate, ever is the marketing aspect of your business. Because I believe that who is it Peter Drucker, who says all a business's is marketing, and innovation, and everything else is an expense. Blake Beus  15:51  That's interesting. I've never heard that quote before. And Greg Marshall  15:53  that's to me, I've always taken that series, because what that's essentially saying is, the core business is your marketing message, and innovating against your competitors. And everything else is an expense, right? cost of doing business. And if you don't, you know, innovate, right? And this is, this is a good point right now, where people are challenged, you know, with the Facebook ads, and I'm being as effective. This is the time to innovate, this is actually an opportunity. Yeah, not a giant obstacle, Blake Beus  16:25  right? Well, and I like it, like calling it an opportunity, because this is where some businesses are going to, some of your competitors are going to going to fall away there, they might even shift to a completely different business model or something, or, or maybe decide it's not worth it or whatever. But those businesses that can innovate and can kind of think this through get get some things figured out, are the ones that are going to come out on top. Yep. So it is an opportunity, every time I hear about something like iOS 14, or whatever, like, oh, boy, here's another opportunity. We don't know exactly how that's gonna play out. But for those people that can innovate quickly and think things through, and it's, it's a time for those businesses to be able to come out on top. Greg Marshall  17:09  Yeah, and that's, that's the thing is what you'll learn from here, although, anytime you go through a difficult time or transition, or you have to do the change, right, air, quote, change, which no, you know, none of us really like, it's always beneficial and best for you, when you go through it. But at during that time, it doesn't feel good, right? Because now we have to get outside of our comfort zone again, and do some new and do something different. And that's part of the growth, right. And so you have to look at if you're running into, like, you know, Facebook ads aren't working anymore, or they're not working as well as they used to, or I can't run ads at such a low budget anymore, because the algorithms not as advanced. And that was your only method of getting new customers, then you have to think about how can you change? How can you adapt? And how can you start implementing these other strategies, which means it's an opportunity to innovate, because a lot of people, when they do run into adversity, they fall apart? Yeah, they just they either give up or think they can't do it. And so you don't want to be one of those. Right? Blake Beus  18:22  Well, and when you stop marketing, you start shrinking. Right. And, and it's like many, many, many business owners, especially the small ones, are those just starting out? They are a technical expert, not like from a technology standpoint, but like, they're a technical expert in their field, maybe maybe they I don't know, maybe one of my neighbors is, is an engineer who builds 3d models for prototyping products, and he gets patents and things like he's a technical expert at that, but when it comes to marketing his business. Yeah, it's, it's okay. Like, that's not saying that's a bad thing. It's, it's that it's a different skill set. Yeah. And, and a lot of people try and do that themselves. And sometimes you're in a position where you have to do that yourself. Yeah. But doing a few key things can make that an easier, you know, an easier thing to do. Like I said, outsourcing to someone for a couple hours a week, small bit of self promotion here, using something like my SM three group where we basically create the images and the captions that are editable for you so you're not starting from a blank screen, you just like grab one, fill in the blanks, coming up with another strategy I feel like a lot of people should do to simplify this is just repurpose the content. If you only have the bandwidth to write two or three posts a week, take those posts and edit them just a tiny bit and now you have your email. Yep, right like put them together and you could even just post your post as an email and link that back to people. That's so you're not have you have to come up with email content and social media posts content and video content and all that stuff you just use repurpose it. We do that with this podcast, a lot of these podcast episodes go out on YouTube, as well. Yep. So we have a presence on YouTube there, even though it's and we pull it and we plug them everywhere else. Greg Marshall  20:18  Instagram anywhere we can put it. And that's really what you want to be thinking about is how can you utilize different channels, different platforms, and don't stop or quit? Or think I can't do this, or I just I don't know if I can make it happen. If you if if your dream is to own your own business, and to be your own boss and to become successful, do not give up. All you have to do is push through the challenge that you have, and focus on where are the opportunities that I can take advantage of that maybe my competitors are not willing to take action on to do it. Yeah. And when you look for opportunities, and you can't, it's hard, I know. But when you look for opportunities, and the challenge that you have, you will find it. And you'll look back after you kind of overcome it and be able to go well, I'm so happy that I figured this out. And if it wasn't for this, quote unquote bad thing, we wouldn't have this good thing today. Right? But during that bad thing, it doesn't feel great. It can send you in panic mode, right? I've been there. Yeah. That's why I'm saying this is part of the game is like, when you sign up to build a business, you're signing up for both the good and the bad. Yeah. And that's what you have to understand. But it doesn't have to be those bad times, they'll have to, you know, overrun you or completely ruin you. They're they're there to help you learn something to take you to the next steps. And if you understand that, it business is a series of ups and downs. And this too shall pass, you'll be able to get on the other side of it and essentially get your get your business running and good things will happen. So that's kind of me on my motivational rant of understanding. Things will get better. Yeah, just keep pushing through. Blake Beus  22:20  Well, I think along those lines, one of the things that came up while you were saying that was like instead of giving up, ask yourself, How can I do this? How can I continue to deliver on these marketing channels, organic email, whatever, without me having to spend more of my time because time is oftentimes almost always the bottleneck. And we've talked that several times, several times already in this episode. But if you ask yourself that question, there's some really creative solutions that we've already covered a few. I'm sure you could come up with something that we haven't covered here. I did want to circle back to talk about another thing I've seen people do. And I think this is a fantastic option is is especially if you're like a solo business, maybe you're coaching consulting, you're just barely starting out, you don't have any staff or anything yet. You can get a business buddy. And you can help each other out. And you can say, okay, maybe we can trade some services, you're you're better at copywriting. And I'm better at maybe I don't know, building out a page on your website or something, right? Like say, Hey, do you want to maybe just kind of swap some services here. And then you work on the you spend more time with the thing you're comfortable with, you're helping out both businesses grow together. And you're you're helping each other out. But both of you are able to get the things done that you need done. And that's a great way to go about something like that. Plus, you can send each other business back and forth like it's, it's a really, really great situation. Greg Marshall  23:52  This is the time to get creative. And this is the time to negotiate. This is the time to get out of your comfort zone to start working the deals that you need in order for your business to succeed in the long term. And I promise you, if you do that, because I've got pushback before on telling people you should you should try influencer marketing, like it works guaranteed. But usually the pushback is this social media has spoiled us in a way where we are able to hide behind, you know our computers and our cell phones and everything else to avoid the fact that there's a level of entrepreneurship is a level of salesmanship. Right? And you have to sell Yeah, and reaching out to influencers reaching out to people and trying to work deals. The option of getting told no. is available and because of that, that's usually the spot people stay away from Yeah, right. But because most people stay away from that, that's also where the opportunity lies. Yep. So if you can just push yourself to go, I feel dumb. putting myself out there, someone tells me no or someone says a bad idea. And you can just keep going and try. You're gonna get some pretty sweet deals out there that most people will not get. Because 98% of people want to avoid sales like the plague. I want to do anything that has the option of you getting told no, or you being viewed as a perceived failure in front of other people. Yeah, right. And that's the key. And if you can just get over that, and push through that and train yourself to go, it's okay. If someone tells me No. And it's okay. If I reach out to 20 people and only to respond back that one deal can change everything. Yeah. So I'm here to say, get out the comfort zone. And it put the sales hat on and yep. And get it done. Yeah, absolutely. So let's, Blake Beus  25:58  let's wrap all this up in a in a nice, nice, neat package, and kind of just summarize what we've talked about so far. Number one, stick with it, stay motivated, changes like this, with iOS 14, or whatever, are an opportunity. And also changes like this are not going away, you're going to hear people next year saying, Gosh, the stuff that worked in 2022 doesn't work anymore. With advertising, ah, you're gonna, you're gonna hear that every time every year, you're gonna hear that so. So the, if you can stick with it, considered an opportunity, find a way to work through it, you're going to be better off in the long run. Number two, get creative with how you can get these things done, delegate some stuff out there, find a business buddy, reach out to a local group, maybe find someone that can help you for two or three hours a week. And, and help you kind of coordinate and organize some of these things. They can help with writing the posts, they can help with posting the posts, whatever is your bottleneck. Find someone to help with that. And there's lots and lots and lots of freelancers in just about any city that that can help you with that. You just need to test a few of them out, find find someone that works. Focus on like a holistic marketing strategy. Don't forget about email. If you're doing just organic, maybe dip your toes in some ads, if you're doing just ads, dip your toes in some organic. repurpose content. Yep. If you're posting stuff on social media, you can use that same content with minor tweaks or even no tweaks in email, or, or elsewhere. And then we talked about repurposing content, feel free to just repost that same stuff on LinkedIn, or Pinterest or whatever, it's totally fine to have the exact same content on multiple platforms, because the audiences are slightly different. And if someone's a fan of yours, they're not going to get ticked off exactly that. Oh, my gosh, they're posting the same stuff on LinkedIn that I saw on their Instagram account earlier. unfollow, that doesn't happen. But I feel like people are afraid. Yeah, it's gonna happen. Greg Marshall  28:04  Because Because that's like, a sales situation. Someone can tell, you know, and verify that you're a terrible person. Blake Beus  28:12  I think that's a good summary. Did I miss anything? Greg Marshall  28:14  No, I think I think that covers it. I mean, I think the biggest thing is just look at writing right now is a good opportunity to advance your business and different ways that you didn't think before, this is where the fun begins. And this is where if you push through it, 12 months from now, you'll say, Wow, I'm much better off, I'm doing better. And if I did I get forced to make these changes. I would have never got to the spot that I'm in today. Yep. So this is good. I know, if people are struggling with it. Just keep pushing through. Think creatively. Reach out to people to help you out partner with people. And I think you'll be good to go. So I think until next time. Blake Beus  28:55  We'll we'll see you guys next time. Absolutely. How do people get in touch with you, Greg? Greg Marshall  28:59  Go to Greg And you can book a free strategy session with me and what about you Blake Beus  29:04  just flip the stock calm. And you can check out my SM3 group in there that Greg's going to soon be a part of. And basically, the SM3 group can kind of help you with the organic side of things get you 80 to 90% there of yours with your strategy and help you create. We create templates and things like that, that that can help you with diversifying your strategy. So definitely check that out. Greg Marshall  29:32  Well, until next time, we'll talk to you guys later. All right, bye.  

Wednesday Apr 13, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript Blake Beus  0:00  All right. Let's do this. Let's talk we're we're gonna talk about testing. Yes, yeah, yeah. And because we bring it up a lot, but we kind of realize we haven't talked specifically how to test and testing is one of those things, at least I've noticed that it's really easy to go way overboard on and stress about every little intricacy of the test, or to just say, Screw it, am I gonna test and I tend to be the kind of person that when I first started, I want to go overboard. Sure. But I've realized that's not helpful. So let's, let's just talk about testing. And it doesn't have to be just ads, you can test in other ways, as well. So so let's let's dive into well, Greg Marshall  0:51  here's a simple way that I like to use test it to not drive yourself crazy. And it's actually testing audiences. So when I say testing, I tend to think, test the audience testing the who, to me is more important than the what? Okay, so meaning, if I can figure out the right audience, that basically, the offer, and a lot of the other things on the back end doesn't have to be perfect. And without saying client names, we kind of discussed someone I showed you earlier. Yeah, before we hit record of how the ad is not even in the quote unquote formulaic way that all the Guru's teach. It's a very simple, straightforward ABA, because we're talking to the right person. It works. Yeah. And so when I, when I say testing, I'm referring to high levels of testing the audience. Because I know if I can make an audience work with a very average offer, or ad copy or ad creative, then it you just start digging deeper into that audience and then go, how do I make this offer? And I create all that better? Because now I know I'm talking to the right person. Right? Does that make sense? So that's how I like to view testing. How were you testing in the past? You said, you may have been overdoing it. What, what was kind of your testing protocol? Blake Beus  2:23  Yeah, yeah. So I have a tech background. And one of the ways we used to do testing was very scientific before I left the corporate world. And we would do basically split testing on landing pages, okay, or on home pages of our site. And so we would basically divert half the traffic to one experience, half the traffic would see the other experience, and then we would get our results. And we would measure that result. And we would get good, really good results. A lot of the time. For example, one of the results, we got a 20% lift for this financial institution, which extrapolated out to a year meant an additional $780,000 to their bottom line on this split test that we did. But when I hopped over into the small business space advertising space, trying to split up audiences to make sure there's no overlap and make sure the test was clean. And you're from a statistical standpoint, is is maddening. And it's not helpful. Like it's not getting you really great data. Because the because I feel like the audiences are shifting like it's, it's you're trying to hit this moving target all the time, right, because you've probably noticed this one test you can run last month will will perform different this month. Sure. And I think one of the reasons why testing audiences specifically is kind of like the main thing you should be testing, like you're saying is because of the the fluidity of audiences. And what I mean by that is, people are entering this audience and leaving this audience all the time. Right. And a lot of a lot of people don't realize that. Like, I didn't think about that, right. When I said, Hey, I want an audience that have people that are, you know, 35 to 45, and live in this area and are interested in a golf. Yep. Right. Well, new people enter that age range all the time. People leave that age range all the time, new people in that age range. express interest in golf. Yep. People stop expressing interest in golf. And so the audience is, is flowing. Yeah. Right. And so, when, when I was trying to do this very scientific test and make sure there's no audience overlap and all these things, I would get results, but then those results didn't scale or didn't perform. Again. Yep. Right. Like they weren't concern system. If I ran the test again, I would get different results. Yep. Greg Marshall  5:02  Well, and I think one of the ways to explain what it sounds like, what you're doing, and this comes from your engineer training mine, right, I think is, you know, one plus one should equal two. Yeah. Right. So you so essentially, what you're saying is like, when you're running tests, you are making the assumption that every time the ad is showed, it's always Blake. And Greg, yes. Yeah. And it's, and it's the same person. So that's the correct way to test if the person was the same. The problem is, because these audiences are changing. Is this kind of what you're saying is, yeah, because audiences changing your know, like, today's test is Blake and Greg, tomorrow's test, maybe, Joe and John. Yeah. And so it's, and we fit the same exact criteria, we're texting, we're not tackling the same verse. Blake Beus  5:54  No, you're, you're technically, you're definitely different peoples. Greg Marshall  5:57  And that's what you're saying, right? That's gonna apply as well. Yeah, you were trying to isolate it in a way that it can't be constant, because the people are interchanging. Blake Beus  6:07  And it was incredibly difficult and time consuming to ensure that that isolation was happening correctly, and ensure that the data was getting reported back correctly. And then it wasn't super actionable, because the tests weren't. You couldn't repeat the results. Like it didn't work. Greg Marshall  6:24  The other challenge that I have seen, and I've tested that too, with you many times, and you know, other clients, myself, one, because I believe in the testing methodologies, like you should always be testing always no matter what. And one of the things that I noticed is what anytime I try to put too many exclusions on it, it seems like the ad platform would have a hard time actually spending the money. Yeah, like, or a wouldn't spend it as quickly. So it takes a longer time to get the data Blake Beus  6:58  or your CPMs go through the roof or so. And so you're seeing for the amount of money you're spending, you're getting in front of fewer people, and therefore it's less significant data, if that's what you're aiming for. And so Greg Marshall  7:12  there's cost could be two or even three times more expensive, right? Doing it that way, which it would be okay. If it was like a consistent person, right, like consistent audience that never changes, but because it's always changing, it might not be the best way for that particular strategy. Blake Beus  7:33  In my opinion. Yeah, absolutely. And when and when you're, you know, one of the things I had to realize is when I was doing like, split testing on pages, for these companies I was working for the people coming to the page were literally the same people over and over and over again, because they would log in and, and it was in the financial industry. So they would log in and do some online banking and stuff. And so it was literally the same people over and over and over again. But when you hop over into the advertising space, and you're trying to get new people that you've not dealt with before, the the data is more fuzzy, and you need to start thinking instead of saying, Okay, what's working for? What's working for this audience, you maybe need to shift and say, How is the audience targeting with the platform's algorithm working? Yeah, is more what it is because the people are flowing through that audience targeting? So if I do this audience targeting inside of Google's ad platform versus, you know, targeting a versus targeting B? How does that targeting, you know, algorithmically perform, as opposed to how do those specific people perform? Because those people are moving in and out? Yep. Greg Marshall  8:48  So it's like a river? Yeah, it's just just flowing. And I think testing audiences to me, is, is what I like to test the most to discover winning people, or at least winning indicators in the algorithm, to then try to test new offers, once I figure out that this type of audience seems to perform for whatever reason, right? I don't try to get too deep into it just for whatever reason, these type of indicators, if I tell the algorithm tends to give me the result I want, once I figure that I keep getting the same result. I focus heavier on what I'm showing them. Blake Beus  9:31  Yeah. That I think that's a good distinction. You're You're essentially, when you're testing audiences inside an ad platform, you're actually testing how well those indicators work. Yep. And that's a much more important thing from like an algorithm based perspective. Are these indicators tagging the correct kind of people that resonate with this offer? I don't need to know necessarily necessarily, who the people are, but is this indicator of good indicator that they're my right kind of Yep. People Greg Marshall  10:02  Exactly. And I think that's, that's kind of an easier way. And even a long term way to train, you know, they say train your pixel or train your ad account, whatever they say, to train anything. Think is really just think of it as how do I give the right information like the competitor, I guess the what does it the analogy that I tell clients, when I tried to explain to them, what we're trying to do with their ad accounts, is I always refer back to real people. Yeah. And I say, look at your ad account as like an employee, what you're trying to do is you're trying to tell that employee what you want. And what a lot of people do is they're not training that employee to tell them, I want purchases, or I want leads or whatever. And they're not giving them any information. They're sending them out blind. So it's like if you had a business, and he said, Hey, I want to hire a sales rep, to go sell my products, but I'm not going to give him any information, I'm just going to send them out there and hope for the best. That's That's how most people were utilizing their ad accounts with not trying to find the right indicators and keep communicating that those are the right indicators to the ad account, so that they can actually find the perfect person. Blake Beus  11:19  Right. And I think I think that's a great analogy. Because what it's because that employee is basically interpreting what you say, into their own kind of internal dialogue. Yep. And the algorithm does the same thing. So I don't know, I know, You've trained people as well, I've trained new employees and things as well. And almost every time it's like, I'll say, This is what I want. But their interpretation was different. And that's not their fault, necessarily. That's because I'm making a bunch of assumptions. Yeah, based on what they already understand, correct. And so I have to restate thing. But that also helps me further understand, you know, what, what I'm wanting as well, but the algorithm is doing the same thing. It's saying, you're telling me I want this particular audience, and it's reinterpreting it to say, well, here, here's those people, but that may not actually be what you're getting at. And so it's this communication Greg Marshall  12:12  exam. And you know, the funny thing is, the reason why I made this analogy, is because it reminds me there's actually specific life situations that are replaying in my mind, as I explained this, when I worked for a big box gym early, like it was my think second job was 23, maybe. So they would send me out to go get people to sign up for the gym. But they would give me no information about what type of person Yeah, they just wanted me to go out there. So I'm in parking lots of target. And Walmart, Best Buy, I was that guy, like literally talking to cold strangers interrupting their day to get them in. And I think of it as because they didn't tell me who to talk to. It's highly inefficient. Yeah. And so when I was working there, I figured out a way to basically not do that, and focus on more referral generation, and more, trying to be more specific. So I don't waste seven, eight hours of my day, in a place with unqualified people, because I'm not being told who the best prospect is. So when I give that analogy, I'm literally thinking of, like, Whatever you do, do not send Greg out there to just random places and just say, make it happen. Oh, because it's just it's not as efficient as going out there and say, Hey, only talk to these types of people, because they would be the right fit for a gym. Blake Beus  13:39  Yeah, oh, man, you just use brought back some traumatic experience as a used to sell auto insurance. We would literally open the phone book. And we will open the phone book and check if they're on the Do Not Call list and then call them if they weren't on the Do Not yet list. And that's I would do that for hours and hours and hours a day. And I did that for several months. And I'm guessing you could guess how many people I got to sign up for car insurance, probably very little 00 literally got zero people signing up for you, Molly. And that's what I was told to do. And they gave me a script to read and everything and it just didn't work. Greg Marshall  14:21  Well. And here's the interesting thing. We can apply that to how people run the ads. They gave you a script, that's the equivalent of making the ad. But you aren't talking to the right person? Nope. So therefore that ad doesn't work. Yep. It's not that it doesn't work ever. It's that it's not going to work. If I'm not giving you a list of people that you should be talking to no. Right. And that circles back around. That's basically you're trying to do your ad accounts because you're looking for indicators of audiences or pockets of people that you can give positive reinforcement back to the employee, the Google ad or the YouTube or the Facebook ad saying, and you notice by training people, they get a result that you like, you better make sure you remind them and tell them, Oh, I liked this result. Yeah, keep go after more people just like this, because this is exactly what we want. Now that helps guide the persons who go after more of those people, and then the likelihood of you getting more is significantly higher. Yeah. Because now you're actually, you see, I'm saying that you're actually like, reinforcing the behavior. Yeah. So that's, that's essentially what you're trying to do with these guys. That's why, or in any ad platform. That's why I recommend test audience. Yeah, the indicators as you put it, Blake Beus  15:41  okay. So, before we wrap this up, let's talk about how you structure an ad campaign from a high level view. I mean, we could talk about specific ad platforms, Google, Facebook, whatever, to to test these audiences without driving yourself nuts, like I was doing. Greg Marshall  16:00  Yeah. So the way I like to test the audiences is very simple. I just have one campaign tied to one audience, as is essentially as simple as possible, like one ad group, one ad set, have the campaign, I like to label the campaign, the audience requires even less of me going deep. So I can quickly just glance and see like how it's performing. And then all I do is I don't worry about overlap. I don't worry about any of that. I just think of themes, and I themed. And then I just run the test. And I'll do really my goal is to do as many as possible, the faster I want to know what the results are the more campaigns on launch at once, and I'll do them at low dollar spend. So they're not like, obviously, you're not spent like 10,000 on low dollar campaigns a lot at a time to quickly get what works, what doesn't. And then I just take the winning kind of aspects of those audiences. And then I relaunch again, and then I have them go against each other. And then I keep doing that to figure out what are the right pockets? But essentially, I don't feel like I go crazy, because I just run a whole bunch of them with the with the intent. Number one, the budgets are low, so you don't have budget anxiety. Wow, a lot need to figure this out. And number two, I basically just say, give it three or four days before I do anything. Yeah. So I have to train myself. And I would recommend anyone else like literally, once you launch them, just pretend they don't exist for three or four days. Yeah. And then look at it. Yeah, that's that's how I keep myself sane. Yeah. Blake Beus  17:39  Yeah. See, and to contrast to what I was doing, I was adding exclusions or and Facebook has now has this split test feature, which guarantees the audiences are going to be completely separate. And, honestly, that's not for you. Unless you're spending hundreds of 1000s of dollars a year, you're gonna get worse results using the split testing feature, every time. Yep. Right. And so that's really only for big brands that have massive budgets. And so I wouldn't even worry about touching that. But that's what I was trying to do. I was adding these exclusions, I was trying to guarantee that we're testing a, you know, an audience, and I'm excluding when I'm creating custom audiences, and excluding them from one another to make sure that we're not overlapping. And and it was absolutely maddening. And then the results were all over the place and not repeatable. Yeah, and I think Greg Marshall  18:33  the thing that you're you're explaining is the thinking you're using is the right thinking, I believe, and the right setting, it's just that these algorithms, I don't think support that thinking because they're kind of unpredictable and then change. That's, I think, that's one of the reasons why exclusions and isolating things too much can be a challenge is because what works in the algorithm today, or tomorrow and Blake Beus  19:02  we've talked about this before, what it whenever you're dealing with an algorithm, you want to make it as easy as possible for that algorithm to do its job. And when you start adding in exclusions, and, and and things like that, you're making it harder for the algorithm to identify which people fit into your target your targeting audience. And, and therefore, if it's harder for the algorithm to do its job, it's not going to do as good of a job getting the right people and your CPMs are gonna go up, your costs are gonna go up all of that stuff. Yeah. And I think Greg Marshall  19:37  overall to the there is a trade off that and this I'm happy rather because there's like a, like a silent agreement that I make with myself, which is, am I willing to make this trade off? It's a question that I like to ask, which is, I could be absolutely exact, but then drive myself crazy. Yeah. Or I can just be a Little bit more loose and it's not 100% exact, but I don't go crazy. Yeah, that's that's like a silent kind of contract that I made with myself. Yeah, when I'm testing so that I know like not to get worked up about it because in the past I've had, it's where it's like if I don't get exact, I feel like this like I don't feel at ease. And that that can you know, we had this conversation before at a lunch once about the marketers anxiety Oh, yeah, it literally if if you're not intentional about what you're doing and paying attention to, you know what, what could trigger it what the risk are, you could literally just be like, in pure panic mode all day long. Oh, yeah. And if you'd like, drive you insane, Blake Beus  20:42  absolutely insane, especially when you're trying to scale and you're spending, you know, higher dollar amounts and things like that, like that anxiety is real. And it can cause you, your business, whatever to kind of choke, you know, and not not be able to function because you're so worried about this one aspect of your business, that it's, it's just not, it's just not worth it. Greg Marshall  21:02  So make the trade off the trade off should just be you want to keep your sanity while you're doing this. And so just understand Sakana be super exact. And that is okay, as long as like, from a high level, all the numbers are working, and your business is growing the way you want it to be okay with that? Yeah. So that's, that's my advice for, for testing is have a healthy trade off. That's what you're doing. Yeah, just so you don't drive yourself crazy. Yeah. Blake Beus  21:32  And then the other thing I'd like to say when it comes to testing, a lot of people don't think about this. But I think more people need to branch out on which platforms there are. So one thing you could test right now is an audience in Facebook. And that same same audience or as close you can get in in Google or YouTube or, or somewhere else, or tick tock or something. Right, like, branch out and see. And you you might you might be surprised. I mean, you were telling me just today about one of your clients who has traditionally done nothing but Facebook, yes. And you said, Hey, let's hop over in and run some YouTube ads. And they are floored with the results. Because apparently their audiences chillin over on YouTube. And yeah, so much on Facebook right now, higher quality Greg Marshall  22:20  leads, higher conversion rates, higher average order values, higher lifetime value, potential lifetime value. They've Blake Beus  22:27  been doing stuff in Facebook for years and years or whatever, right? They've been running Greg Marshall  22:30  Facebook ads for four years, four years. So they're not like, they did Facebook one month. And then they just decided to because it didn't work in one month, they switch. They've had success with Facebook ads for years. But they noticed that their CPMs are getting higher, and the quality of the person was different target with them. So I suggested to make a move, and at least test another platform. And he's getting great results. And I think the moral of the story is, that's why you should always test and never slow down as far as like testing for platforms and one platform and maybe revisit it a couple weeks later. But you should always be testing different platforms, different audiences, so that you can figure out if something changes, you're able to move, and it almost doesn't impact. It's like diversifying. Yes. Yeah. Blake Beus  23:25  All right. And then the last thing I really wanted to bring up and this this is my opinion, and I actually haven't actually asked you this before, but I feel like people when they're first hopping into ADS, one of the very first things they want to test is something like men versus women, sure, or age ranges, you know, 35 to 45 versus, you know, 76 or whatever. Yeah, and in my opinion, unless your business is very specific, yes. To the needs of an age or a gender. In my opinion, that is like the worst way. Yes. The worst way to cheat test audience. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah, Greg Marshall  24:04  I would say, and it depends, right? Because the type of product like if it's a women's product, right, I mean, obviously, you want to test women, and how many of you could have manicures met with goodbye for and I've done that. But typically, you know, whatever the product is the way you test it, you just got to figure out like, could both genders purchases? And the other question you have to ask yourself, and so this is why I actually test these types of things sometimes against each other is Am I making assumptions? That are incorrect. Yeah, I made the assumption before, like, on some of the ads were, well, I'm just going to exclude other placements or only have it mobile or only have a desktop or only have this or don't have it on TV or whatever. Right. I found that the more I kind of keep it open, the better. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like because I'm not forcing it's kind of a level of a exclusions. I'm not forcing you to, like, I'm not telling the employee to only do one thing, right? Yeah, I'm actually giving it breathing room and trusting like you should trust an employee for them to figure it out. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's what I found is, the more you can keep it to where it does include both genders. Most age ranges, the better. I've seen it. Blake Beus  25:24  Yeah. So yeah. And so what we're talking about specifically, here are interests interest based are a good place to start. Each platform has kind of their own unique things within YouTube, you can you can test based on what channels people are interested in, or whatever. So if there's a channel with a topic that's completely relevant to your product, or whatever, right, you can test based on that. Facebook has based on other interest groups and things you can test based on. You know, income, yep. Right. Facebook kind of sucks with that. But Google tends to be a better based on on in in, I feel Greg Marshall  26:03  like that's an understatement. Yeah, I feel like it's significantly more accurate than Facebook. Blake Beus  26:09  Yeah. And so, so look like literally look into those targeting options, and at least get familiar with what's available in each platform, and come up with some creative ways to test those. Greg Marshall  26:20  So yeah, so I guess to end this podcast, make sure you're testing test often. And that's the main job of a media buyer. Blake Beus  26:31  All right, well, Greg, how can people get in touch with you Greg Marshall  26:33  go to my website, Greg, you can book a free strategy session call. Blake Beus  26:37  And for me just go to Blake The SM3 Group for social media marketing is like a group kind of marketing thing where we help put together posts and things for you. That's the main kind of thing Greg Marshall  26:50  and be able to look out Blake and I got some cool plans coming out for that program. Yes, Blake Beus  26:53  we do. So yeah. Be Be on the lookout and we'll we'll let you know when those things drop. All right. We'll Greg Marshall  26:58  talk to you guys later. Okay. Bye.  

Thursday Mar 31, 2022

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Podbean App Spotify Amazon Music Tunein + Alexa iHeartRadio Player FM Listen Notes   Transcript   Blake Beus  0:01  And we're good ready to go? Let's do this. Alright, so I'm going to start off with just Yes. Just asking you asking you this directly. Blake Beus  0:12  We've all had this clients come to us say I want the cheapest traffic possible. I like where can I get my cost per click as low as possible? And and how can I spend the least on ads as possible? And that seems like a simple question with a simple answer, but it's not. We were talking about that and why? Greg Marshall  0:35  You just told me. Yeah, this may be not a good idea to look for the cheapest traffic it Yeah. So in fact, I think it's a, in most cases, it's a bad strategy. Not every case. But most and the reason for and I think it also depends on your industry, but usually there's a direct correlation with the costs for traffic or cost per lead, and the quality of leads. So think of it like this, if you want, because I get this from clients a lot. And I know you have to where clients will say, I want to only target people with money. Right? Okay. You go. Yeah, well, of course, so does the rest of the world. Yeah, business. Everyone wants that client that will spend the most money without thinking about it. Right. So what what does that mean? That means everyone's going after that person, which means all these work and auction, you're going to be spending more money, yeah, per click. And your CPM, your cost for the actual impressions will be much higher. With that being said, you should actually look at that as a positive side. Yeah. Because if you can make those higher cost per clicks, higher CPMs work, you're going to I mean, your conversion rate is going to be high. And if you have a good lifetime value and customer is going to be worth it. The math works out. It's just a lot of times we become obsessed with the cost per whatever we're doing right? At almost at the detriment of how quality those are. Right, right. If I got you 100 leads for $1. Or I got you two leads for $50. You spent 100 bucks on each, but one of them gets zero conversions, and the other one gets one for $10,000. Which, which one would you prefer the one for $10,000 every time every time but what happens and this goes into something that we've talked about? What happens is businesses don't know their numbers. And so they actually just use other people's kind of results to like gauge them on what they should be doing. But they don't even know their own business numbers. Yeah. On whether they should be trying to scale or if they're winning if they're losing. Blake Beus  2:50  Right. Right. Well, I think one of the key things I want to pull out one, one phrase you said in there is, you basically said if if you have a high lifetime value for your customer, and that's, in my mind, whenever I've had this conversation with any clients, or anybody talking about advertising, it always boils down to lifetime value. And usually, people aren't thinking super long term when they're when they approached me with this specific question, I want the lowest cost traffic, lowest cost per click possible. They're not, they're usually not thinking long term. And I oftentimes will tell them, well, it's usually easier, more profitable and less stressful to increase the lifetime value of your customer base than it is to go try to find the cheapest traffic possible and make that profitable. Yep. And, and so people tend to have that backwards just a little bit. So one of the things I liked to talk about with them was depending on the model, how can we increase that lifetime value, so that we can spend the most per click out of anybody out there out there in the industry? Because if we can be insanely prospect profitable to a point where we can spend more money than anybody else on each click, then you win every pain out there. Greg Marshall  4:12  Well, and the other thing is this, the competitive advantage is, everyone else doesn't have the stomach. If you do to pay that cost per click yes, they're focusing on how do I get a lower cost per foot versus how to get a higher lifetime value. So what ends up happening as it almost becomes a game of like, who can outlast the other? So it's like, can I deal with a $30 cost per click longer than my competitor can like, does that make them nervous? And they stop? Yeah, and I keep going right? If I keep going? I win. Yeah. Yeah. Because I know they're going to be thinking about how do I get cheaper cost per clicks, which that's really the wrong question asked and this what drove me to this thought was actually I had a conversation with a client yesterday. And he was he right now he was getting, he was slightly profit on new customers coming in. And he was actually asking, which is good, right? He was asking me, How do I get more customers? My response was, spend more No, right. But he was well, I don't know if I want to do that I want how can we get the cost per purchase? To go down? Right? And I said, Well, why would you be worried about that? If you're not? Like, if you're actually slightly profit on the front end? What is your concern? Your real job is not to be profitable on the first time customer, right? Your real job is to build a business. And there's a difference between customer acquisition and a business. Right, see a business's think of Starbucks, Amazon, you think they you think they're trying to get new customers for $1? And trying to make money off that? Absolutely not? Because that would actually cause them not to be some of the richest companies in the world, right? Because their lifetime value, they want you to buy coffee forever. They consider customer acquisition and expense. Right? They don't plan on making money on customer acquisition. All of their marketing and advertising campaigns are not to make money on new customer acquisition. Yeah, in fact, anyone who tries to make money on new customer acquisition will be small and stay small forever, right? Because there's basically it's, it's, it's a myth, it's a fantasy. And what what actually triggered this conversation, which I thought was funny, because I was like, Okay, this gives me a glimpse into the mindset of how some businesses or maybe many businesses are actually viewing this. So he had told me, yeah, I spoke to someone and like, shouldn't we be getting cost per purchases? And this is on a $75. Okay, shouldn't we be getting cost for purchases at like, $3 $2? Maybe? And you laugh, because he could see how ridiculous That's right. Yeah. And I was like, in my past, I'm trying to get better at this. Basically just telling people, no, that's not gonna work. So can we get it for two or three? I mean, instead of and right now we're paying off of purchase at 25. Blake Beus  7:29  Okay, for 75? For seven, yeah, I'd Greg Marshall  7:31  be I'd be thrilled with those results. That's, that's, that's a 3x return on the cold new first. That's insane. Like, that's really good. So that's working right. Now. The question was, well, how do we get it to $3 a forearm and basically says we don't, right, and it won't happen? Or if it did, you can't scale it. So I said, whoever is telling you that you can do that is probably only sharing the numbers of like how much you can get an existing customer to reconvert. While simultaneously using a tiny budget. Yeah. So if you spend like $5 a day, you can do that. But Blake Beus  8:11  but it's not sustainable. You might have one day where you do that. But the next day, you might not you might have like four or five days, because you're just not reaching enough people exact right. So if you do get one purchase on that one day, they will be like, Hey, I got a $75 purchase for three bucks. Yep. But that's not reality. Greg Marshall  8:29  Well, and something that the light bulb went off in his head when we were speaking, which I thought was like, Okay, I need to keep it actually helped me because I was like, I need to communicate this harder to people. So they understand that they're actually missing out on opportunity. I said, So, if you're spending $5 a day, you're getting that return. But you know, you're only reaching What 500 People was on 300, maybe? Maybe 1000, Blake Beus  8:56  maybe, maybe 1000. It may got really good CPM, right? But most likely not. No. I said, there's absolutely no way you can ever scale that particular result that audience because it's too small. So you couldn't spend $5 a day and jump it up to 50. Because then it would just, you would have no return or negative returns because you'd be spending way too much for that size of audience. And for me, I always think, okay, so you want let's make the numbers easy. You want you're getting a $25 cost per purchase on a 75? Well, let's make it $100 product. Let's just make this really easy. Okay, so $100 product, you're making 20 $25 cost per purchase on $100 product, and you want that down for let's say $10. Yeah, right. What you're really asking is how can I get a 10x return on this investment? Not how can I get a cheaper cost per purchase? The real result is How can I 10x my money here? Yeah, and the answer that is well, let's come up with some additional products and service Just to offer people that have already purchased, you already paid the $25. Yep. For that $100 purchase, if we want to Tenex that, how can we turn that, that customer now into a $250? Customer, and now we've text, exactly, we didn't compromise our customer acquisition? It's right. And so that's really what people need to think about. And a lot of people look a lot of businesses there, this is maybe falling out of vogue right now. But there were a few years ago, there were all these, like, find my $1,000 course. And we're going to show you how to how to how to how to, you know, 5x, or 10x your ad spend on a product or whatever, right? And, and the reality is, if that's all you're thinking about, you're not building a business that's going to last and you're building a business that's completely dependent on this one advertising strategy. And as soon as the algorithm change, or as soon as some competition hits, you're going to struggle, because real businesses focus on customer acquisition, and then long term sustainability, revenue, sustainability and customer value, then just the initial sale, the initial sale is like I said, an expense. It's not a business. Yeah. And the other thing is this. And he made me think of a phrase you could tie with that. So if you're wondering, how do I get a cheaper cost per purchase? What you're really asking is, how do I make my business smaller? Because what in order to achieve that you would have to niche your audience down so small, that you're only talking to the absolute, hottest audience, which is only so big, right? And you'll burn through that audience pretty fast? And and then where do you go from there? And to kind of expand on that? If you have any aspirations of doing $10,000 A month or award sales? On your online store? You can kiss that goodbye? If you're trying to get 10x. Yeah, trying to get on Excuse me, excuse me, you're trying to reduce your cost per purchases to a number that's so low, right? You could forget about ever exceeding $10,000. Absolutely. Now, that being said, it's still a worthwhile exercise to say, can we find a way to take this existing campaign and get a little bit better cost per purchase. And that's where split testing comes in, where you start testing different creatives, headlines, different videos, maybe change up some wording on your landing page, or something like that. Or maybe you tweak the offer just a little bit to sweeten the pot? Yeah, all of those things can reduce your cost, cost per purchase. But it's also a realistic thing. Basically, all you're doing is you're playing around with your customer acquisition costs, and trying to onload onboard as many people as you can into your business. But you got to be reasonable, you're not going to get those cost per purchase for a buck. And you're able to spend, you know, $20,000 a month on advertising issues and maintain that you can't it's just really, I've never really been one to say something's impossible. Yeah. But I feel pretty confident about that one. To get, you know, $5 $3 purchases on especially anything 24 hours or more, at a big scale is going to be very challenging, right. Borderline boss. Yeah, that's, that's basically what I want to say is, if you want more stability, Greg Marshall  13:37  don't play that game. Yeah. Play the How can I increase my repeat purchases? Faster? More regularly? How can I get one customer by every month, several times a month? In three days? Buy more? How can I upsell them at the point of sale, play that game, right? Instead of lowering cost per purchase, because that will be literally like a hamster wheel. You will just be running on this wheel in search. It's like you're in search of gold, right? Like you heard that there's a treasure map somewhere. And that there's gold that you can find the promise it might be out there, but it may take your whole life to find it. Blake Beus  14:15  And you might even hear a story. You might even hear a story of someone that did that. Yep. But the thing is, is oftentimes those are the statistical outliers, the anomalies that that they themselves probably couldn't even repeat that it's it's, I wouldn't say winning the lottery or whatever. But it's you said Gold Rush, right. Like you had a gold rush. You had all these people had out to you know, California looking for gold. And the reality was, is that a handful of people that were there at the right place in the right time. did make a ton of money. Yep. But the people that made consistent money were the people that sold the shovels. So the equipment provided provided the tools and things for long term sustainability on They're on their business. So yeah, I mean, I did want to talk really quick about cost per click on Google search results within, if you want to move on, I would love to talk about different ways people can expand maybe a little bit more detail, their average customer value. So cost cost per click, like a lot of people, especially when they start hopping into Google Search Ads. They're blown away. They're like, I'm spending how much per click in Facebook, I'm spending it to $2 per click. But in Google, I'm spending 20. What what is with that? And it's it's a different methodology. And we've talked about this before, where we've talked about intent, yes. And Facebook is, if you see something while you're scrolling through your feed, your intent is passive. Like, you might have a passing interest in whatever is going on there. When you're doing a Google search, and looking for something specific, and you see those click Results, your intent is very high. If I'm hopping in there, I'm searching you know, roofing guys in northern Utah. Yeah, I'm ready right now to get some quotes on my roof speak to some Utah roofer. And that intent is good and, and the profitability for roofing company. I mean, I had my roof done a couple years ago. And it was almost $20,000 for them to do the roof. And so you're thinking, okay, yeah, they have some overhead material, whatever, but the profitability on that is easily worth a $50. Click. Yep. Right. Like if they can get their $50 Click for a free consultation, they'll drive around out there the same day. I mean, we had someone come the same day, I scheduled a consultation. And they showed up and gave me an estimate, looked at everything showed me the damage took pictures. I mean, they really treated us Yeah, because they knew that that would be a profitable thing. So the cost per click is extremely relative based on intent, and profitability and things like that. Greg Marshall  17:03  Well, the other there seems to be a correlation also, with, and I've tested this a lot. So the cheaper leads seem to not like I've heard people on Facebook, right? But hey, when I do Facebook, lead ads, I can't ever get ahold of people, or I'm getting leads from Facebook, but for some reason, they're not working. Right. And you hear that, and you and you go Alright, well, they're usually getting leads at $5 or seven $8. Right. But then if you get the leads that cost 50 100. Those people almost always answer the phone and agree to do an appointment. Yeah, almost always like not kind of, almost always. So you can almost make the correlation that the more money you spend to acquire the lead, the higher likelihood that person will get on the phone. Or meet you in person. Yeah. And the lower you spend, right, so the Blake Beus  18:10  you know, let's say you get the $2 leads or whatever, you're not going to get all in because that's almost like a direct reflection of how committed that lead probably actually. Right. Right. And I've got a personal experience with this. Right, like, so I have my SM three group, it's a monthly membership. And then the the very first product launch was my social media content plan. And I used to sell it for almost 50 bucks. And and we just ran cold traffic ads to that, Greg, that's when you and I started working together brought you in because I was like overwhelmed and stressed about everything. And, and that was going good to competition, hit algorithms changed all that stuff. So we kind of switched up the offer and came up with this monthly membership, which is super great. But then I took that $50 product and switched it over to a free lead, right to just get people on my email list and try them and try to market to them. And I was getting leads for 50 cents lower than my cost per click on the purchase outs. Yep. And I didn't have a single one of them convert. I spent several $100 to test that out. Not one of them converted they and in fact most of them unsubscribed after everything. So it was like okay, well, that didn't work. But it's it's true. Sometimes the cheaper it was it was a really juicy lead. And I think that's why I was able to get it so fast. But none of them converted over to the monthly membership. My other customers that paid me the $50 and then I email marketing to them. They hopped over and join the membership. And so it's all about kind of playing around with that and making sure you're getting the people with the right intent and align up to the correct people. But that initial offer was one that people were like, well, I just want this I'll just put my email in here and then get this thing for free and it's good enough and I don't need to do anything else with it. You know, Blake and this or whatever Greg Marshall  20:02  I think to to, and I fallen victim to this thinking just like anyone else, right? Where initially you think you talk to clients and everyone, you want to give them what they want the cheapest lead the cheapest color for this. So you go okay, well, we'll do that versus saying, getting their mindset to change to go. Are we here to build a business? Are we here to try to, you know, try a fad? Yeah, right? If we're here to build a business we should be looking at these are, how we're doing everything different, right from the quality of the lead up front, to how we can upsell them to the lifetime value verse and let's not worry so much about a cheap lead or cheap foot. And let's worry more about a quality, the higher quality leads and the higher quality prospects because I can tell you right now, I remember acquiring a customer I was talking about right for him. I believe his acquisition cost was about $600 to get him. This is like four years ago. Yeah. And he's been with me since Yeah. So for four years, and he's been paying me a lot of money. So that $600 was well worth it. I've gotten leads where they were well, cheaper than that. Yeah, that they stay on for one month, or they're not that serious or whatever. And they're done. Right. So there's a Yeah, you get what you pay Blake Beus  21:33  for bases. Really, it really is that and it is interesting, one other anecdotal thing, and then we can move on to how to increase the lifetime value. Or do you remember when we decided to do a flash sale on my $50 product? Right? We did this flash sale for three days, and we bumped it all the way down to seven bucks. Yep. Right. And on cold traffic at a $7 price point. We did a 2x row as on cold traffic. For those three days, this flash sale. And I was thinking great. Well, maybe this is something we could do. Yep, long term. I had way more my my refund requests, as a percentage went up by about 30 or 40%. Because, frankly, they're just cheap. Yeah, customers. Yeah, they're, they're not the quality of customers that I wanted. So people were spending $50 for this thing, but those that converted at seven, were way more picky. And only it picked every little thing about it and said, Well, I didn't like the design or whatever. So refund me. And it says it was a Digital Profit got to keep it for free. So I had a lot of people do that way more than I did when I was selling it for 50. Yep. And so honestly, a lot of the times the cheap customers are the worst customers. Oh, no doubt. It's not even a lot of times, I would almost be like 99.9% of the time. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah. And it was a headache, trying to refund all those requests, and everything was just like, oh, my gosh, this is a customer support nightmare, because I went after the wrong people. Yep. Greg Marshall  23:05  And so that's really, so really the goal is to think about maybe flip flopping. How you design your business, right? So designed to where the acquisition costs is moderate, to hire. So you can because what that would be communicating as you're targeting a higher quality product or prospect, because the higher costs are going to come from, hey, I want to reach, you know, a woman 35 to 44, who likes to exercise and it makes this much mind. That's very expensive to reach him. Right. And that's good. Because we want that person, right? It's versus a lot of advice. And like I said, I've fallen into this too before, a lot of advice people are getting, how do we keep driving costs down? Well, here's a simple way just broaden your audience. Yeah. And you'll lower your costs. There you go, right, just have no charge. But the problem is, what type of persons actually coming in? Are they the right fit for your business? Or your product? Right? Probably not. Right? So. So just don't fall into that trap? which like I said, I have been guilty of this before. Blake Beus  24:10  Yeah, it's easy. It's easy to follow. And it's easy to look at your ad expenses and think, Geez, especially when you have like two or three days where some oil changes and you're you're not you're not even making money on ads, yes, to make money on. It's easy to freak out and say okay, what's what's, you know, let's, let's lower the cost. It's easy to shrink. Yes. So easy to shrink. Absolutely. And something that you just pointed out to me which could almost be like a philosophy would be almost the higher your costs for acquisition and CPM. The more I guess, stable your business can be Yeah. Because what that basically means now is that the prospect and buyer higher quality but the other thing is when you have it set up that way. Greg Marshall  25:02  Like we talked about earlier, it other people aren't going to be they're not going to feel comfortable paying that. Right for a long time, most people, right. And so you can almost say like, if it's costing a lot, I mean, a safer space. Yeah. Then if it's costing really cheap, because if it's really cheap, the gold rushes are all going to come in and be running, you know, products and things and offers exactly the same as yoga. And then all it's going to happen is now the market of people that you're going after are going to expect unrealistic things. So then becomes a race to the bottom. Yes, well, my product is cheaper. Well, this person said that they give me 10 programs for $7. And you're only doing eight, and it becomes this race to the bottom. It's, in my opinion, I don't believe most business owners get in the business to be to join that race. I think they have the opposite. That's what they do. Blake Beus  26:00  And I think it's like a panic reaction like a reactionary, reactionary thing. And let me pull what you said in a different way. If you want to be able to run ads and sleep at night, without getting stressed about your margins, find a way to be profitable at a much higher cost per acquisition, because then it's like, okay, you're you're profitable, long term, on a $50 cost per acquisition. If it goes up to 55, no big deal. So good, you're still fine, you're still fine. But if you're profitable at a $5 cost per acquisition, a little tiny profit, and if it goes up 10, you're you're losing money, and you're losing your shorts, and it's game over. And so you're waking up in the morning, and I've been here you wake up in the morning, the first thing you do is you check your ads manager, see how it performed overnight, see where you're at. So you need to make adjustments and everything. But if you want to if you want to be the lazy marketer, put all your time and effort into building that long term value. Yep. And then it doesn't, it doesn't matter so much. So you can check your ads every now and then. And and just kind of see if you want to refresh your creative or something, or maybe run a couple of split tests every now and then. But yeah, at that point in time, you're a lazy marketer. Yep. But you're making more money. Greg Marshall  27:15  I actually like how you just said that, because I think that's what everyone's aspirations actually are. You start a business not to just like live and add accounts, and market and spend 99% of your time doing it. Yeah, you start a business because really your aspirations like I want more time. Yeah, more freedom, haha, so that I can do what I want. So it would make more sense to do the exercise of what's the highest my acquisition costs could be and be sustainable, meaning you should do the exercise of if my acquisition costs doubled. Overnight. Could I still make that work? And how, yeah. And then when you get to that one, do it again. Yeah, I keep thinking like, Could I pay? Like, you know, I'm using t shirts, for example, right? Could I pay? Because I know my numbers. So well? Could I actually afford to pay $80? An acquisition? Yeah. And make that work? Yeah. And if you could, how would you do it? Well, I would bump maybe myself, you know, or maybe I would have an email sequence that gets that person that bought get 50% of my new buyers to purchase in seven days. Yeah. But play that game. And if you do it, you'll be able to relax more? Because they'll be like, well, Blake Beus  28:29  it's gonna take a while before your acquisition costs literally double overnight, right? Because that means the CPMs would have doubled, which means competition would literally have to double overnight. Well, if you're like, yeah, if your cost per acquisition is 80 bucks, right? And it doubles to 160. Something is seriously wrong. And yeah, good place, right. Like, that's not gonna happen. But if it's five and doubles to 10, that's just a glitch in the system. Yeah, like that could happen in an hour. Easy. Oh, yeah. And so. So let's take the last few minutes of us. Let's talk about a couple of different ways, realistic ways that people can increase that long term value. We've kind of hinted at them, but I think we should just draw them specifically. So you, let's start with E commerce. You just were talking about T shirts. That's an E commerce business. He talked a couple strategies. Let's dive into that for just just a little bit longer. Greg Marshall  29:18  So how do you increase lifetime? Yeah. So the way you do it, I precice. blue in the face is text message and email marketing. So making sure you're capturing customer information, so that you can go ahead and give them another offer? Right. That's number one. Some that's very close to as far as up there in the scale of importance. Making sure you have consistent email and text message marketing campaigns. Yes. happening immediately. So that your objective is to get them to purchase again. Yeah. All right. And then the third thing that I would recommend is, if you're an E commerce Make sure you're constantly coming up with new products to offer. If you only have five products, and you just stay with those five products, you're not going to last. And the reason is because your ads can only do so much on that front end, right, the more you scale, the higher acquisition costs. So if you're not coming out with new stuff consistently to sell to that person that's related materials, not unrelated, you're not going to be able to be as profitable you can. So make sure you're coming out with new products consistently to sell those people that are buying your front end offers, right? The other thing would be, you can increase your prices, right? You can create bundles, to get people to buy more at once. You can also create flash sales. And if you uniquely put them together, you don't have to discount your product so much. But it increases people's buy ravier, right. So these are things to really think about is making more offers to the customers you already paid for. If I simplify at all, that's how you do. So instead Blake Beus  31:04  of spending time in the ads manager, just making everything, spend time on improving bundles, coming up with email and text message content consistently, constantly building that email list and coming up with new product ideas. That's it. So that's where you should be spending your time now, honestly, most business owners that I've run into, that's where they would prefer to spend their time. Yeah, they get distracted by all her advertising stuff. Because those numbers are addictive. Well, not only are they addictive, but people have different beliefs about money. Yeah. Makes them afraid. And that applies everyone, not just somebody. Right, right. And so when you think about that the ads manager is the one thing where you can where you feel like you have the most control, because you can just turn it off. Yeah, your problems are solved, but at least I'm not losing money. Yeah. Where people tend to get caught up. And this is where I think Greg Marshall  32:05  this is where I think the real opportunity is. When I talk to clients about how easy it would be like every single time I've told a client to do this. It's work. Yeah. The customers you have if you give them another offer, your offer will be immediately profitable. Yeah, guarantee. Yeah. And every time they do it, they see these huge spikes, like, wow, I'm getting all these sets. I have one client in my mind, I'm not gonna say her business brand, so you don't copy her exact strategy. I have one client right now that whatever I tell her to do, she executes it. And she executes it. Well. She is literally she's cut her Aspen in half, just because there was an issue with her add a cow, and some frogs and stuff from someone hacked. But she cut her adspend in half. But, but I told her in order to make the main difference. You're not doing text or email. She started doing that. She's actually on pace ever biggest month this month, while spending half on Rakoff. And I said, Well, what why is that? She's coming out with new products. Oh, she's living far. Exactly. Yeah. And if clients spent more time just like, they usually get caught up, and they don't know what to say. Or what to make. Right? And that's usually why doesn't happen. But if you just take any action, you're likely your likelihood of succeeding with the current customer is super high. Yeah. Because she's not making anything like, you know, game changing. Yeah, they're just like maybe a different color of the shirt. Or instead of a T shirt is lost, or the hoodie is now available or create the same phrase at work into a dress. She's not doing anything like some huge innovation. Yeah, it's just it's incremental. Yeah, it's just give something new. Yes. Something something. Anything. Okay. Makes sense. I love it. Blake Beus  33:58  Okay, let's let's really quick talk about like consulting coaching professional services, what are some ways that people can improve their customer lifetime value there? Yeah. So the fastest and easiest ways to make it a recurring model, and then focus on your customer retention on that recurring model. So that's number one. Number two, could be you could raise your prices. Number three, could be you have supplemental programs to sell to these people that are related to the product that you're serving them with. Number four, could be improving your referral rate, because those referrals come in at a low acquisition cost was increases the lifetime value of the actual customer who refer a lot of people don't think of it that way. Yeah, but one customer is paying you That refers you to another person, that customer now has doubled their worth. Yeah. Or if they sent four or five now there were five times more. Yeah, because they're showing referral behavior, right. So encouraging your current customers to send referrals and then you know, You could, you could do partnerships with other people that have different products to do an affiliate that sales to your current customer base. But that's, that's essentially how you would do it is controlling pricing, putting them on recurring model, making sure they're sending referrals and then having kind of complementary programs to what you're selling. Right. Awesome. Awesome. And then let's see what's up. What's a model we haven't talked about here? I mean, those are kind of the two everything kind of lumped into one, commerce or service. You know, the other thing maybe you could talk about, you know, brick and mortar, like restaurants and things like that, which I see almost, I don't see very many restaurants using advertising. Yeah, my thought is, I've had very limited experience with restaurants. But here's my thought, restaurants are a low margin business. And so the likelihood of how they're viewing the advertising is tougher, because they're not looking at it as a lifetime acquisition, even though the lifetime value of a food customer. Yeah, have actually be super high, as long as your food is good. Yeah. Right. Because they would just keep coming. There's some restaurants I go to, over and over and over again, there's one restaurant that serves a meal that I like, you know, it's a rice of steak meal. I go there at least once a week. So think about what they're making. All right. And if they acquired me through advertising a front, it would make no sense, right? Well, if it costs you $30, to get me to come in and buy that first time last month, but if I stay with you forever, yeah, then technically that $30 is compounded Yeah, as a return. So I would think that they just need to focus on like the fundamentals of long term things, and then treat, add, create treat ads, as if they're kind of like, a billboard or something that you can't really attribute back to, because the only way you can really attribute that back to is if you give some sort of a discount coupon or whatever. So you're already low margin. So it's most like hey, just kind of do some saturation in the local market here. But focus on customer service and retention and getting people to come back, you know, once they show up in the door. I think the moral of our podcasts on the story is build your business don't only worry about acquisition and have everything else falling apart. Yeah, right. You want to make sure that you have strong systems in place a long term strategy give you a key by awesome All right, well, we're this is one of our longer podcasts let's let's wrap this one up. Unknown Speaker  37:29  Greg, how can people get in touch with you Greg Marshall CO and they can book a free strategy session call you can go rocking out Blake Beus  37:36  just like me stock calm. You can see my membership on on the page there and and we can connect through them membership. Great. Well Till next time, we appreciate it. Okay, later  

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